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> aliens, is the truth out there?
steiner
post Dec 6 2007, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Dec 6 2007, 08:38 PM) *

The nothingness that the universe exists in is infinite. I think it would just be a lot easer to refer to "the universe" meaning "the matter floating in the void". Because Space itself doesn't count, seeing as it doesn't technically exist.

I liked that explanation when you told it to me, but I'm not sure if that it's strictly correct.

I'll explain what I think we mean by space. When we travel through space, we travel through nothingness. However, if we kept on travelling at a phenomenal speed we would not carry on for ever. Eventually, after billions of years we would reach the end of the Universe and we would be able to travel no further. In that sense it is finite to us because it has boundaries

It's ridiculously complex.

You know the Big Bang? That created space and time. So space and time are only inside the Big Bang. We don't know what's outside. That's why some people have hypothesised the existance of multiverses and the like.

We really need a physicist on the forums. What I've told you may not be completely accurate.



EDIT: But if you look at the Universe in other ways it can be called infinite. At the moment, no one really knows.


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Fox
post Dec 6 2007, 10:14 PM
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^I get what your saying...but I just disagree with all those theories. I can understand the big bang making MATTER, but when you think about it "time" is only a perception created by man to explain "matter changing". I mean, how has the nothingness we called "space" changed over time?

Thats why i don't think there is a boundry to space, cause I think the whole idea of there being "an edge to nothingness" is preposterous. Theres no way to measure Space as an entity because, as w've discussed, there isn't anything to measure. So theories about the edge of the universe at such is mroe philosophy than science, don't you think?


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steiner
post Dec 6 2007, 10:37 PM
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^Really, I don't think I have the knowledge to say. I think it's all based on maths though, albeit very debatable and ridiculously complex mathematical proofs.


An interesting point though is that the way you spoke of time was as if it were unalterable and constant. Maybe thats my impression, but that's not the case. For example, the speed at which you move affects the speed at which time flows for you. Its all very strange. After all, time is just the 4th dimension. The Universe is a space time continuum.


Unless string theory is correct and there are actually 10 or 11 different dimensions that actually exist in this Universe.


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unholysoul
post Dec 7 2007, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Dec 7 2007, 05:08 AM) *

QUOTE(Fox @ Dec 6 2007, 08:38 PM) *

The nothingness that the universe exists in is infinite. I think it would just be a lot easer to refer to "the universe" meaning "the matter floating in the void". Because Space itself doesn't count, seeing as it doesn't technically exist.

I liked that explanation when you told it to me, but I'm not sure if that it's strictly correct.

I'll explain what I think we mean by space. When we travel through space, we travel through nothingness. However, if we kept on travelling at a phenomenal speed we would not carry on for ever. Eventually, after billions of years we would reach the end of the Universe and we would be able to travel no further. In that sense it is finite to us because it has boundaries

It's ridiculously complex.

You know the Big Bang? That created space and time. So space and time are only inside the Big Bang. We don't know what's outside. That's why some people have hypothesised the existance of multiverses and the like.

We really need a physicist on the forums. What I've told you may not be completely accurate.



EDIT: But if you look at the Universe in other ways it can be called infinite. At the moment, no one really knows.

the big bang is just a freakin' theory....
it may not be real....


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Tidus1
post Dec 7 2007, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE(the x reaper @ Dec 6 2007, 08:21 PM) *

i heard a saying that may relate to the size of the universe:
what we know is little but what we dont know is massive

LOL wonder where you got that from


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Fox
post Dec 7 2007, 03:47 PM
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@Unholy soul:

Good point, but I think the big bang, to some extent at least, is the best theory we have to work with at the moment. It explains everything.


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rainbowbrat
post Dec 7 2007, 05:36 PM
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I think there are other life forms out there...

And also, read somewhere (and saw on the news) about them finding the vase emptiness of nothing...no stars, no moons..no nothing...just....nothingness.... like some 300 billion light years away or something...

I will look more into it and give you actual numbers xD


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BohemianAndy
post Dec 8 2007, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE
LOL wonder where you got that from


Remember that this is the Debate Forum. When you post, try to relate your post to the topic.

QUOTE(unholysoul @ Dec 7 2007, 06:53 PM) *

the big bang is just a freakin' theory....
it may not be real....


If you happened to have done some research, you would notice that there is more evidence for it than you think.

Here is the Wikipedia entry for the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe's detection of the radiation associated with the rapid expansion of the universe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang#Cosm...round_radiation


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unholysoul
post Dec 8 2007, 02:32 PM
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well if the big bang was true, how could a single SPEC create LIFE FORMS...
so you mean its true that you can make living things with just energy??


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Fox
post Dec 8 2007, 03:20 PM
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Energy and matter. First of all hydrogen atoms come together and eventually form stars, which spew out other elements. These come together to make rocks which come together to make planets. Eventually material comes together in the right conditions to create single celled organisms which evolve slowly into beings like ourselves.

There's a tiny tiny ridiculously summarised rundown. It wasn't like: "Big explosion -> life as we know it"


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steiner
post Dec 8 2007, 03:30 PM
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@Unholysoul: You obviously don't know what the Big Bang actually is then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

^Read that. Imagine all the mass in the univers squeezed into one tiny point.

QUOTE
the big bang is just a freakin' theory....
it may not be real...

You obviously don't know what a scientific theory is then. A scientific theory is a hypothesis that is supported by evidence. That evidence is background microwave radiation and the red shift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

You say it's 'just' a theory. Evidently you don't know the implications of the word 'theory' then.

QUOTE
I think there are other life forms out there...

And also, read somewhere (and saw on the news) about them finding the vase emptiness of nothing...no stars, no moons..no nothing...just....nothingness.... like some 300 billion light years away or something...

I will look more into it and give you actual numbers xD

Yeah, the distance between galaxies is huge. And nothing is found in between galaxies.

The nearest galaxy to the milky way is 60,000 light years away. 300 billion light years is 5,000,000 times that size. That is huge. But it may well be possible.


EDIT: Fox was kind enough to give a short summary of events. And when I say short, I mean really really really short.


Also, on an interesting point, energy and matter are connected. You could describe them as interchangeable.


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Fox
post Dec 8 2007, 03:50 PM
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^ Hence why blowing up matter will create energy?

WHen does energy create matter though....maybe I'm thinking about this in slightly the wrong way?


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the x reaper
post Dec 8 2007, 04:34 PM
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one thing about the big bang that if it created the universe,what was there before the big bang?

This post has been edited by the x reaper: Dec 8 2007, 04:34 PM


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Fox
post Dec 8 2007, 04:46 PM
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Nothing. Just emptiness and the singularity which would eventually explode. And that was always there.


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the x reaper
post Dec 8 2007, 08:50 PM
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yeah,but what made that?


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Fox
post Dec 8 2007, 09:07 PM
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Nothing. thats the point. It was always there. I don't think the big bang "created" matter, it merely spread it.

I know its tough to get your head around something existing for eternity with no beginning, but its a bit easier if you can realize that the passage of time is something humans created rather than observed to monitor change.


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steiner
post Dec 8 2007, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Dec 8 2007, 03:50 PM) *

^ Hence why blowing up matter will create energy?

WHen does energy create matter though....maybe I'm thinking about this in slightly the wrong way?

From what I know, when you break down a nucleus by nuclear fission it releases energy and some extra neutrons which start a chain reaction releaseing a whole load of energy. That's nuclear power.

This explains the connection between mass and energy sort of:

QUOTE
Relativity
When calculating kinetic energy (= work to accelerate a mass from zero speed to some finite speed) relativistically - using Lorentz transformations instead of Newtonian mechanics, Einstein discovered unexpected by-product of these calculations to be an energy term which does not vanish at zero speed. He called it rest mass energy - energy which every mass must possess even when being at rest. The amount of energy is directly proportional to the mass of body:

E = mc2,
where

m is the mass,
c is the speed of light in vacuum,
E is the rest mass energy.
For example, consider electron-positron annihilation, in which the rest mass of individual particles is destroyed, but the inertia equivalent of the system of the two particles (its invariant mass) remains (since all energy is associated with mass), and this inertia and invariant mass is carried off by photons which individually are massless, but as a system retain their mass. This is a reversible process - the inverse process is called pair creation - in which the rest mass of particles is created from energy of two (or more) annihilating photons.

In general relativity, the stress-energy tensor serves as the source term for the gravitational field, in rough analogy to the way mass serves as the source term in the non-relativistic Newtonian approximation.[8]

It is not uncommon to hear that energy is "equivalent" to mass. It would be more accurate to state that every energy has inertia and gravity equivalent, and because mass is a form of energy, then mass too has inertia and gravity associated with it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

One atom has loads of energy stored inside it that cannot be easily harnessed. That fact lead people on to nuclear power and bombs.



And the Big Bang didn't create matter. In simple terms, imagine all the matter in the Universe crushed into one small point. The Big Bang caused that matter to spread out.


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post Dec 9 2007, 01:07 AM
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Sorry for the off topic post, but I could not resist, again sorry and then I'll comment on the topic.

QUOTE
I know its tough to get your head around something existing for eternity with no beginning


Then why is it so unfathomable that God wasn't that singularity. Sorry, and now back on topic.

I don't believe in aliens and such, but it is a mast universe, and we haven't been to the farthest reaches neither do I believe we will ever get there. So I guess we'll just have to speculate and bicker among ourselves about unless there are aliens and they try to make contact with us. But it is also possible that if they do exist then maybe they can't get to us, which brings us to the point, I doubt this question can ever really be answered.


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Fox
post Dec 9 2007, 01:48 AM
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Because the Big Bang didn't design the universe intelligentlly. Personally I don't see a shred of evidence for Intelligent Design that isn't BETTER explained by chance.

The "God" debate has very little do do with existing for eternity, more about the nature of the universe as it is today.

I disagree that its a question that will NEVER be answered, but the odds of alien contact in this life are pretty slim. Bear in mind unless the problems of Faster Than Light travel are solved then we would have needed to have left Earth long before our species came into existence to be reaching the next solar system over about now.

That's if my memory serves anyway. The point is if Aliens left their homeworld today to come and say Hi we'd be unlikely to meet them for another few million years at least.


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unholysoul
post Dec 9 2007, 09:39 AM
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@steiner:
so you mean that energy can create creatures and other sorts of life forms???
are you sure????


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