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> executions, should we have them?
girlsrgamers2
post Nov 25 2007, 06:44 PM
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What I meant by without a shadow of a doubt was conclusive DNA evidence.


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steiner
post Nov 25 2007, 06:48 PM
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^Good point. Although DNA is not 100% perfect (more like 99.9% perfect) and sometimes the conclusions drawn from the evidence can be wrong.


Hypothetically though, if you were 100% sure that someone had commited many murders I still think that murdering them because of it is brutal and wrong. It lowers society from the moral highground.


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Fox
post Nov 25 2007, 07:44 PM
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Wow, Steiner and I really ARE on the same page this time! ...you been at the drugs again?

XD

Anyway, as you can guess I agree. Even if you ARE 100% certain, essentially an execution is just killing a human being. Which is what the guy did in the first place. Seeing as Murder is the worst crime that can be committed, does it matter what the motives are? What motives can justify murder?

And surely if someone can piss off the state so much to justify it, some of these criminals probably have good reasons as well.

The justice system enforces the law, this does not make it EXEPMPT from the law. Murder is wrong. Always. Period.


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the x reaper
post Nov 25 2007, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Nov 25 2007, 06:32 PM) *

1) How can you EVER prove 100%? Even if they admit it they might be insane. We accept the fact that the Earth is round for a fact but have you gone up to space and had a look yourself? Maybe its all a huge government conspiracy.

2) If you execute someone, you are a brutal killer yourself. Fact. I'm all for keeping them out of society but murder is murder, whatever spin you put on it.

it is not brutal murder,it is merly taking out a pesky fly


This post has been edited by the x reaper: Nov 26 2007, 04:37 PM


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Fox
post Nov 25 2007, 08:07 PM
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Jesus. Hope i never get on the wrong side of you!


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the x reaper
post Nov 25 2007, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Nov 25 2007, 08:07 PM) *

Jesus. Hope i never get on the wrong side of you!

your right,my brother annoyed me so much that when he was near a bin,i kicked him and he nearly lost his eye


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girlsrgamers2
post Nov 25 2007, 08:58 PM
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How about we stay on the subject, x-reaper. Maybe I feel this strongly about it because American prisons are overcrowded as it is. Why give a murderer 3 square meals a day and a bed to sleep in? Even though I'm very liberal in my beliefs, I've just always felt a murderer doesn't deserve to live. But I understand why you both (steiner & Fox) feel the way you do.


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Fox
post Nov 25 2007, 09:32 PM
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And I understand as well. But the thing is - Prison denies you all the things you take for granted. So it's not a case of people in there sitting back and thinking how lucky they have it. Prison denies people the freedom's most of us take for granted. They can't choose what they eat, or when excersise time is or who they share their cell with.

Sometimes they get limited choices but really everything they do is controlled. Criminals of all people don't enjoy that - they like to be IN control.

And I think "Justice" is a bad word. Besides my other points about not sinking to their level and such, allowing them to keep their lives shows humanity that these criminals don't have. I don't like to think of humans as as a species that kills these people "because they started it". Allowing them to live makes us better than them and it shows mercy.

It's not about whether they DESERVE mercy, it's about whether we are human enough to give it anyway.


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Resurrection
post Nov 26 2007, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Nov 25 2007, 01:42 PM) *

^I agree completely with that. Seems like Fox and I are on the same sides for this one. wink.gif

Just out of curiosity, so are you and Fox pacifists?

QUOTE(Fox @ Nov 25 2007, 04:32 PM) *

And I think "Justice" is a bad word. Besides my other points about not sinking to their level and such, allowing them to keep their lives shows humanity that these criminals don't have. I don't like to think of humans as as a species that kills these people "because they started it". Allowing them to live makes us better than them and it shows mercy.

It's not about whether they DESERVE mercy, it's about whether we are human enough to give it anyway.

I like that, Fox. Well said smile.gif


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Fox
post Nov 26 2007, 11:53 AM
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Oddly enough I'm not a pacifist. I'm against war and I don't dream of joining the army and I hope all steps can be taken to prevent it. But if we were thrown into war I would probably do my bit.

Don't get me wrong - there is no justification for that. War is killing other people and as a result there is no such thing as a "just" war. That makes it all right does it? But just because its murder doesn't mean I wouldn't fight just to help protect family/friends etc.


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Marblefist
post Nov 26 2007, 02:52 PM
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You CAN be 100% certain that someone murdered a person, CCTV and eyewitnesses (several) can prove beyond doubt that someone commited a murder.

QUOTE
Why give a murderer 3 square meals a day and a bed to sleep in?

That is a good point seeing as many prisons are in pretty good shape with more boons than one would expect. Sure you can argue about freedom but is it as a concept all THAT important? Jail and the prospect of it seemsb to impact people little these days. Plus many murderers get out of appropriate sentences by pleading insanity, intoxication etc.


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Fox
post Nov 26 2007, 03:24 PM
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If they can do that to get out of jail they can do that to get out of the death penalty as well.

I agree you can prove a person's guilt "beyond reasonable doubt" but CCTV isn't the most reliable thing in the world. Some people look similar to other people. Same with eyewitnesses. There goes the 100% proof. 99% or whatever, but not certain.


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the x reaper
post Nov 26 2007, 04:39 PM
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also,prisoners may of ruined lifes so why not ruin theres by taking theres away?if there is a god then he would be proud of us by ridding of these pathetic humans!


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Resurrection
post Nov 26 2007, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE(the x reaper @ Nov 26 2007, 11:39 AM) *

also,prisoners may of ruined lifes so why not ruin theres by taking theres away?if there is a god then he would be proud of us by ridding of these pathetic humans!

Read the second part of Fox's post 28.


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steiner
post Nov 26 2007, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE
Just out of curiosity, so are you and Fox pacifists?

Im not a pacifist, but Im close. I do believe in self-defence, but I also believe in avoiding killing where possible.


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the x reaper
post Nov 26 2007, 07:49 PM
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well anyway,i think it would be good to torture them if they commited a big crime or lots of crimes with water torture and the sort so they can feel the pain they've caused


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Fox
post Nov 26 2007, 08:18 PM
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Alot of people would consider torture a step worse than death. When you torture someone enough they lose their will to live than keeping them alive an dtorturing them is even worse than death. So I think you have to group it in the same category


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Paka
post Nov 26 2007, 09:08 PM
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I am completely against capital punishment. My qualms with the death penalty and arguments against the consist of many of the common ones. Some of these would include the question of possible innocence of course, racial and economic biases, the arbitrary application of it, cost vs. life imprisonment, the fact that it is not conclusively shown to be a deterrent, the question of cruel and unusual punishment (and lowering ourselves to the level of the killers, seeking revenge and not justice), plus the evolving standards of ethics worldwide.

An irreversible punishment, and arbitrarily assigned one, in a system which is so prone to error (uneducated juries, corrupt prosecutors, forensic fraud, inadequate defense, ect.) is unethical in the extreme, and there is no evidence that these issues can ever be resolved.

Even in cases where guilt is definite, there can never be a definite determination of the state of mind or motive, even if the killer confesses... the # of those who are intellectually impared, suffer from mental illness or have had their personalities altered by years of abuse, ect., on death rows is quite large. Many states seem to factor in aggravating and mitigating factors, but the problem becomes that you can never know for SURE the mind of accused (evil, or very ill and damaged?) and the extent of the mitigating factors, which are subjective in any case and difficult to try to weigh quantitatively. Even in the case of unrepentant and admitted murderers who committed their crimes in the name of a cause, executions only produce martyrs and further killings, plus even in non-cause related killings the attention given to the executed can inspire copycats.

Also, execution creates a whole new group of victims in the loved ones of the executed. Society is well served and completely protected by giving the worst offenders life without the possibility of parole. Really, the conditions in U.S. "supermax" prisons are very harsh and life spent in one is certainly an ultimate punishment in itself.
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Fox
post Nov 26 2007, 09:41 PM
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...There's not a single thing I disagree with there!!!

I dont agree about the copycat thing AS STRONGLY but nutter copycats are a problem sometimes so they're obviously part of the issue.


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the x reaper
post Nov 27 2007, 05:13 PM
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ok,how about this,prisoners are tortured up to a inch of there life,let them go and if they do another crime torture thema gain and so on until they beg for there death,it would be music to my ears to hear them scream


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