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> One Big Fairytale, The most well known book to man, the Bible
AkamaruFoxHound
post Dec 30 2007, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 30 2007, 04:18 PM) *

No, Agnostics believe in a higher power, they know we got here somehow, but do not believe in the mumbo jumbo the churches and the bible put out there. AFH said he believes in God....therefore, NOT agnostic...he is a searcher smile.gif

I am Agnostic, and I do not believe there is a GOD....but I do believe we didn't just pop outta no where.

I lean more towards science, but there are things that have happened that are unexplainable, or "miracles" as some call them...

As far as the bible goes...I dunno about it bein a fairy tale, but it is a book written by many people and by their POV's. On top of that...how many times has it been translated? How many words and meanings have been lost in translation? You simply can not put your faith into something like that, IMO anyway.


I thank ya greatly rainbowbrat, but yes there may have been lost translation within the book that we do not know of, some words that may have been obscured over time


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joesmith123
post Dec 30 2007, 11:55 PM
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^Nothing is lost in the translation since they have scrolls with scripture that is over 1000 years old. In fact, any well educated pastor will be able to read ancient Greek and Hebrew to understand the original texts.


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silentaura
post Dec 31 2007, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 30 2007, 03:18 PM) *

No, Agnostics believe in a higher power, they know we got here somehow, but do not believe in the mumbo jumbo the churches and the bible put out there. AFH said he believes in God....therefore, NOT agnostic...he is a searcher smile.gif
I've always thought for someone who have lack of devotion and uncertainties to religious guidances are considered agnostic. unknw.gif


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Nick
post Dec 31 2007, 01:05 AM
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I'm sure paganism comes into this somewhere, but I've long given up debating in here. I'll just throw that in there wink.gif


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rainbowbrat
post Dec 31 2007, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(joesmith123 @ Dec 30 2007, 03:55 PM) *

^Nothing is lost in the translation since they have scrolls with scripture that is over 1000 years old. In fact, any well educated pastor will be able to read ancient Greek and Hebrew to understand the original texts.


There has been a lot of things lost in translation. Do you know how many different versions of the bible there is? I know of 5.

The scrolls you refer to are old language, and even a "well educted pasture" can not translate them ALL. Also....there are scrolls that are way older than 1000 years old.


QUOTE(silentaura @ Dec 30 2007, 04:35 PM) *

QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 30 2007, 03:18 PM) *

No, Agnostics believe in a higher power, they know we got here somehow, but do not believe in the mumbo jumbo the churches and the bible put out there. AFH said he believes in God....therefore, NOT agnostic...he is a searcher smile.gif
I've always thought for someone who have lack of devotion and uncertainties to religious guidances are considered agnostic. unknw.gif


QUOTE
1.One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.


He said he "believed" in God...therefore...not agnostic. What you are referring to is a "searcher" or "wanderer". I know there is another word for it, but I can't think of it tongue.gif

QUOTE
I'm sure paganism comes into this somewhere, but I've long given up debating in here. I'll just throw that in there


Pagans do not have the same bible as christians....afterall..pagans are not christian. So paganism should not come into play anywhere. UNLESS you are speaking of how the christians took some of the pagans ways and turned them into something for themselves. IE: Christmas. (just 1 off the top of my head)


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joesmith123
post Dec 31 2007, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE
There has been a lot of things lost in translation. Do you know how many different versions of the bible there is? I know of 5.

The scrolls you refer to are old language, and even a "well educted pasture" can not translate them ALL. Also....there are scrolls that are way older than 1000 years old.


There are different versions that have slightly different wording such as NIV vs. KJV but the same message is there and thusly nothing was lost in translation.

Exactly, there are very old scrolls up through medieval documents up to today's printed Bibles that show that nothing has been changed over time.

Once a pastor learns ancient greek and ancient hebrew they have the ability to read the ancient texts written in their original languages. It's nothing that's easy to accomplish, but it's far from impossible. There are many guide books that help them as.


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rainbowbrat
post Dec 31 2007, 08:55 PM
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You seriously think nothing has been lost?

Do you really think that all these scholars can translate every single word without error?

Then do you think mary magdelin (sp?) is a whore like the books made her?

I was watching a docmentary one day, and in it they even said that not all the bible could be translated because the language was unknown, so they interperatated it into their own meanings. (catholics)

I will have to dig up some info....I wish I could remember what it was called....


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Fox
post Jan 1 2008, 02:47 AM
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I swear I remember a topic calld "The Bible"......

Anyway, I'm an atheist so I obviously believe it is....wrong. It was certainly a mistake putting the Old Testament and the New Testament in the same text, god has a personality change and stops smiting people after Jesus is born.

Raibowbrat, are you sure you're not after the term "Deist" rather than "agnostic"? And agnostic wont commit to saying there is a god but belives there is a possibility - they dont really firmly believe in a higher power. Deists believe an intelligent being created te universe but doesn't interfere in our lives.

Joesmith, you can argue that nothing was lost in translation of the scriptures but when you bear in mind very little of the bible was actually written until a few centuries after the death of Jesus you can pretty much garuntee that alot of it is warped. It certainly loses alot of validity.

If I see strong evidence for a god, or for some of the events described in the bible I will reasses my views, but there is very very little to be found in the real world to back up its claims, I feel.


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AkamaruFoxHound
post Jan 1 2008, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 31 2007, 01:55 PM) *

You seriously think nothing has been lost?

Do you really think that all these scholars can translate every single word without error?

I was watching a docmentary one day, and in it they even said that not all the bible could be translated because the language was unknown, so they interperatated it into their own meanings. (catholics)


right, most texts that are found are unknown (Such as language) or either obscured from weathering, etc.


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steiner
post Jan 1 2008, 04:15 PM
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Let me Steinerify this thread. Apologies if I repeat something already said.


While I dont think the Bible is one big fairytale, I do think it can sound like one at times. First of all, the Bible isn't a story, it's many things including a moral guide and an informer. While the stories it tells are often logically ridiculous such as the virgin Mary, they do often have symbolic points to them. Anyone who reads the Bible literally is essentially missing the whole point of it.

Nevertheless, I still think there are problems with the Bible in that not everything can be symbolic. The history is not very accurate and the stories even less so. The things that make it sound fairytale like is nonsense such as people living for hundreds of years. The Bible is littered with such stories throughout and theologians would be clutching at straws trying to explain every one of them literally. As a historical guide, the Bible is most definitely imperfect.


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Resurrection
post Jan 2 2008, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Dec 31 2007, 09:47 PM) *

Joesmith, you can argue that nothing was lost in translation of the scriptures but when you bear in mind very little of the bible was actually written until a few centuries after the death of Jesus you can pretty much garuntee that alot of it is warped. It certainly loses alot of validity.

Wait a sec. Where did you hear that the Bible was written a few centuries after the death of Christ? All of the New Testament was written within less than a cetnury of His death. ALL of the NT books were written either by the Apostles (who knew Jesus) or people who knew the Apostles.

(By the way Fox, you're right, there was a thread about the Bible that I made months ago.)

http://www.ffxii.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14198

I am a Christian, and I believe that the Bible is inerrant (without error). Was there a man from Nazareth named Jesus who died on the cross? Most historians would tell you yes. Did He do miracles? That is another issue, but there is good reason to believe that He worked miracles, which would make claims to deity more believable. We know that eleven of the twelve Aposltes were martyred. Peter was crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded because they would not renounce their faith. (These are just a couple of examples, Christians were dying left and right in the Roman Empire the first three centuries after the Crucifixion.) Ask yourself this: do people die for something that they believe is a lie? No. They would probably have to be either stupid or crazy. (Similarly, Jesus could not have been simply a good man because a good man would not make all those false claims about himself, and nor is there any reason to believe that He was crazy. That's coming from a psychologist's POV. ) But the Apostles, people who were intimately close with Jesus, chose to suffer gruesome deaths rather than renounce their faith. Now, if Jesus really wasn't who He claimed to be and didn't do any miracles, this wouldn't make sense. It would only seem to make sense if the Apostles really saw the miracles that He did and witnessed His resurrection from the dead. They were not stupid (anyone who can get loads of people to believe what he says must be pretty darn intelligent), and looking at their writings there isn't much reason to believe that they were crazy. The most logical explanation is that Jesus really did perform miralces, and that He really did rise from the dead. Even secular sources record His miracles.

QUOTE(steiner @ Jan 1 2008, 11:15 AM) *

Let me Steinerify this thread. Apologies if I repeat something already said.


While I dont think the Bible is one big fairytale, I do think it can sound like one at times. First of all, the Bible isn't a story, it's many things including a moral guide and an informer. While the stories it tells are often logically ridiculous such as the virgin Mary, they do often have symbolic points to them. Anyone who reads the Bible literally is essentially missing the whole point of it.

Nevertheless, I still think there are problems with the Bible in that not everything can be symbolic. The history is not very accurate and the stories even less so. The things that make it sound fairytale like is nonsense such as people living for hundreds of years. The Bible is littered with such stories throughout and theologians would be clutching at straws trying to explain every one of them literally. As a historical guide, the Bible is most definitely imperfect.

I agree. I do not view all of Genesis literally. I do not believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. It is enitrely possible that the Creation story was simply allegorical. I do, however, believe that Adam and Eve were real people from who all of humanity has descended. About the other historical books of the Bible, I'm not so sure.


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silentaura
post Jan 2 2008, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 31 2007, 06:23 AM) *
What you are referring to is a "searcher" or "wanderer". I know there is another word for it, but I can't think of it tongue.gif
I did a definition research and I think the most accurate word for those individuals, is Theist

So vague though...


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post Jan 2 2008, 01:15 AM
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QUOTE(silentaura @ Jan 1 2008, 08:02 PM) *

QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 31 2007, 06:23 AM) *
What you are referring to is a "searcher" or "wanderer". I know there is another word for it, but I can't think of it tongue.gif
I did a definition research and I think the most accurate word for those individuals, is Theist

So vague though...

I was going to say that! If an atheist is someone who does not believe in God, and the prefix "a" just means "no", someone who believes in God is simply a theist. I could be called a theist, but "Catholic" would be a better, more specific term.


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silentaura
post Jan 2 2008, 01:20 AM
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QUOTE(Resurrection @ Jan 1 2008, 05:15 PM) *

QUOTE(silentaura @ Jan 1 2008, 08:02 PM) *

QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 31 2007, 06:23 AM) *
What you are referring to is a "searcher" or "wanderer". I know there is another word for it, but I can't think of it tongue.gif
I did a definition research and I think the most accurate word for those individuals, is Theist

So vague though...

I was going to say that! If an atheist is someone who does not believe in God, and the prefix "a" just means "no", someone who believes in God is simply a theist. I could be called a theist, but "Catholic" would be a better, more specific term.

Yeah, since people have different perceptions on that word, revolving between justifiable truths and personal belief. I'm an atheist but I expect people to be curious somehow. wink.gif


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JudasOne
post Jan 2 2008, 02:35 AM
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Fox had it right that a deist believes in God without religion.

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steiner
post Jan 2 2008, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE
That is another issue, but there is good reason to believe that He worked miracles, which would make claims to deity more believable. We know that eleven of the twelve Aposltes were martyred. Peter was crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded because they would not renounce their faith. (These are just a couple of examples, Christians were dying left and right in the Roman Empire the first three centuries after the Crucifixion.) Ask yourself this: do people die for something that they believe is a lie? No. They would probably have to be either stupid or crazy. (Similarly, Jesus could not have been simply a good man because a good man would not make all those false claims about himself, and nor is there any reason to believe that He was crazy. That's coming from a psychologist's POV. ) But the Apostles, people who were intimately close with Jesus, chose to suffer gruesome deaths rather than renounce their faith. Now, if Jesus really wasn't who He claimed to be and didn't do any miracles, this wouldn't make sense. It would only seem to make sense if the Apostles really saw the miracles that He did and witnessed His resurrection from the dead. They were not stupid (anyone who can get loads of people to believe what he says must be pretty darn intelligent), and looking at their writings there isn't much reason to believe that they were crazy. The most logical explanation is that Jesus really did perform miralces, and that He really did rise from the dead. Even secular sources record His miracles.

I dont think your argument is convincing. It is actually very easy to trick people if you try hard enough. Just take a look at magicians nowadays who peform tricks which seem to have no explanation. If Jesus were to have peformed one of these, possibly out of what he viewed as necessity, he would have gained many followers. Stories also naturally become bigger and greater with time. In fact, its quite natural for him to have had so many supporters. The Jews really needed a figure at that time to lead them and to help them out of their dire situation. Jesus came along and seemed to do wonderful stuff, so it was only natural for people to believe in him and exaggerate the stories about him. Many people would have actually believed in him as well. Jesus too would have most likely believed he was God and if you truly believe someone to be God, you will die for him. To say that the most logical explanation is that Jesus peformed miracles and rose from the dead is simply wrong.

Let me use an example to illustrate my point. I went on holiday to Egypt just now and I learnt quite a lot about ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt was extremely religious. In fact, many people would have died for their religion and writings on the walls of the ruins sometimes talk of miracles that were peformed. Almost all Egyptians believed that the Pharoah was a God and all writings in Hieroglyphics agree with that view and support the miracles that supposedly happened. According to your way of thinking, the most logical explanation would therefore be to agree that the Pharoah was indeed a God and that he did perform many miracles. Otherwise, why did people die for him and why did all writings in Egypt say the same thing?

I think that proves why that logic is flawed.


QUOTE
I agree. I do not view all of Genesis literally. I do not believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. It is enitrely possible that the Creation story was simply allegorical. I do, however, believe that Adam and Eve were real people from who all of humanity has descended. About the other historical books of the Bible, I'm not so sure.

Thats good to hear. Out of curiousity, do you also believe that Adam came before Eve?
And do you believe in evolution?


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post Jan 2 2008, 11:54 AM
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I remember my biology teacher saying that genetically Eve had to have come before Adam as men have the Y chromosome. But i'm not entirely sure, that in itself was not enough for me to proclaim Adam did not come before Eve.

As i mentioned before the Bible is a VERY figurative text, for example, if you read revelation it is laden with of the wall pictures which may have held specific meaning during the time it had been written.

Yeah it's easy to trick people but the Jews were not particularly willing to embrace Jesus as king, else he would not have been allowed to get crucified. Whether Jesus performed these miracles is a matter of faith quite simply and as a christian i believe that he did.

Why are people so certain that things were lost in translation, as Joesmith mentioned the words have changed but the meaning has not. Over the past few hundred years? It hasn't, i did some coursework last year analysing lexical change between an early version of the Bible in english printed in 1609 or thereabouts and compared it to the version of the Bible in 1929. They were largely the same bar some differences in description, describing Jesus as getting "scourged" rather than whipped, yet the meaning was there, the story flowing in exactly the same way. Just because something has been translated it doesn't mean it has been 'warped', this is a point of arguement between christians and muslims, who learn arabic.


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 2 2008, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE(silentaura @ Jan 1 2008, 05:02 PM) *

QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Dec 31 2007, 06:23 AM) *
What you are referring to is a "searcher" or "wanderer". I know there is another word for it, but I can't think of it tongue.gif
I did a definition research and I think the most accurate word for those individuals, is Theist

So vague though...


It was either that one, or Deist.... Ty!!


QUOTE
Ask yourself this: do people die for something that they believe is a lie? No. They would probably have to be either stupid or crazy.


Of course they won't...but do they think it is a lie? No. They simply do not know any better...that's why they have "faith" because they want to "believe" that they will be saved, and that they are fighting for something good.....


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Fox
post Jan 2 2008, 04:32 PM
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One thing that has always bugged me about the logic of Christianity:

Jesus was a Jew. King of the Jews. But those who follow Jesus follow a different religion. So in worshipping Jesus and accepting him as the Saviour, and more to the point starting a new religion form him, arfn't you saying that Jesus himself was wrong?

There's something screwy going on there...


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 2 2008, 04:52 PM
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And how they say love thy neighbor...I don't remember it saying, "love thy neighbor unless they are gay or don't believe what you believe."


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