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> Supernatural, different realms/levels of earth
rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 04:47 PM
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Do you believe in the supernatural?

Have you had an unexplained experience?

Have you ever ghost hunted and caught EVP's?

Have you ever seen shadow people?

Have you heard things in the white noise?

Do you believe that there is more to this world than just us?

I have...and I do believe that there are things out there that walk among us in a different realm/reality/spectrum. Maybe people's ideas of heaven and hell are somewhat accurate...maybe earth is the heaven/hell they speak of, but it just exists in another form around us. Possibility?


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 04:53 PM
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I believe that certian things we consider supernatural exist in some form - but I don't believe they are supernatural.

Supernatural is synonomous with "unexplainable" and I don't believe that, I think we just dont know the explanation yet.


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silentaura
post Jan 4 2008, 04:55 PM
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Interesting and expandable topic, rb.

So I guess you'll be facing many principles in physics. Get prepared!


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE(silentaura @ Jan 4 2008, 08:55 AM) *

Interesting and expandable topic, rb.

So I guess you'll be facing many principles in physics. Get prepared!


Kinda what I was hoping for tongue.gif

QUOTE
Supernatural is synonomous with "unexplainable" and I don't believe that, I think we just dont know the explanation yet.


If we don't know the explanation yet...wouldn't that be "unexplainable" laugh.gif


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 05:06 PM
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"unexplainable" implies it can never be explained. Threes a difference between "Cannot be expplained" and "Cannot be explained YET". "Unexplainable" is the former. "Supernatural" is the latter.


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 05:09 PM
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It's been too long...
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QUOTE
Do you believe in the supernatural?

No. I believe that the concept of supernatural is flawed. As Foax said, I believe everything has an explanation, its just that these explanations are far more complex than you would think, as physicists during the 20th century found out.

QUOTE
Have you had an unexplained experience?

Yes. I have never heard the explanation of loads of things that happen in the world. Movement due to gravity is an unexplained experience. But that doesn't mean there isn't an explanation out there.

QUOTE
Have you ever ghost hunted and caught EVP's?

No and no.

QUOTE
Have you ever seen shadow people?

No. Just no.

QUOTE
Have you heard things in the white noise?

No.

QUOTE
Do you believe that there is more to this world than just us?

That's too vague a question to answer.



However, if string theory is proved right and there are 10 or 11 dimensions, then all sorts of 'natural' explanations could arise for these phenomena.

Of course, there is more to the world than their first seems. We now know for example that the world has at least 4 dimension. The fourth dimension is time, and we are part of a space time continum where we view a three-dimensional cross-section of a four dimensional world at every second. If you understood that, then you may have realised that actually, technically, even when the four dimensional object (which is everything) leaves our three-dimensional plane, it still exists in the fourth dimension. Which could mean we still exist even after we die.


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 05:18 PM
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I wonder, is the belief that everything is explainable and there is no supernatural somewhat hipocritical (spell?)? I mean, so often people like you and I, Steiner, say we cannot believe in a God as there is no evidence, but there I can't see any evidence that suggests the supernatural can be explained either. Yet we both believe that it can be. Is that not the same logic as reigious belief?

I'd be interested to see what you think.


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
Have you had an unexplained experience?

Yes. I have never heard the explanation of loads of things that happen in the world. Movement due to gravity is an unexplained experience. But that doesn't mean there isn't an explanation out there.

However, if string theory is proved right and there are 10 or 11 dimensions, then all sorts of 'natural' explanations could arise for these phenomena.

Of course, there is more to the world than their first seems. We now know for example that the world has at least 4 dimension. The fourth dimension is time, and we are part of a space time continum where we view a three-dimensional cross-section of a four dimensional world at every second. If you understood that, then you may have realised that actually, technically, even when the four dimensional object (which is everything) leaves our three-dimensional plane, it still exists in the fourth dimension. Which could mean we still exist even after we die.


That was what I was looking for ^

And it seems totally possible. But if that is the case...then all the christian beliefs about heaven/hell & life/death would be tossed out the window maybe?

QUOTE
Do you believe that there is more to this world than just us?
QUOTE
That's too vague a question to answer.


That is why I followed with :

QUOTE
Maybe people's ideas of heaven and hell are somewhat accurate...maybe earth is the heaven/hell they speak of, but it just exists in another form around us. Possibility?


and by form, I meant dimensions...I just couldn't think of the word at that moment.. laugh.gif

Edit: I didn't even see your post Fox

QUOTE
I wonder, is the belief that everything is explainable and there is no supernatural somewhat hipocritical (spell?)? I mean, so often people like you and I, Steiner, say we cannot believe in a God as there is no evidence, but there I can't see any evidence that suggests the supernatural can be explained either. Yet we both believe that it can be. Is that not the same logic as reigious belief?

I'd be interested to see what you think.


I am not steiner, but I will say what I think!

There is evidence of Supernatural experiences. They have been seen and heard and felt...unlike God.


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 05:40 PM
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^Ahhh...I see what you mean. Yeah, there may well be more dimensions than 4, although they're not the sort of dimensions that you're probably thinking of. Try looking at this video:

http://tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php


QUOTE

That was what I was looking for ^

And it seems totally possible. But if that is the case...then all the christian beliefs about heaven/hell & life/death would be tossed out the window maybe?

Possibly. I dont really know how the whole idea would really work. Its really complex and what I said about existing for ever in the fourth dimension could be wrong. I just thought about it one day, and it made sense in my head. And then I asked my physics teacher and he said, 'Yeah, thats probably right, although I have no idea what the philosophical implications of it are.'

QUOTE
I wonder, is the belief that everything is explainable and there is no supernatural somewhat hipocritical (spell?)? I mean, so often people like you and I, Steiner, say we cannot believe in a God as there is no evidence, but there I can't see any evidence that suggests the supernatural can be explained either. Yet we both believe that it can be. Is that not the same logic as reigious belief?


Id say that the belief that everything is explainable is logical and therefore is more valid. It would be a greater 'leap of faith' to claim that something has no explanation than to say it has an explanation. I suppose you could also say that the success of logic in Science is evidence for the belief that everything has a logical explanation.

Anyway, we do have explanations for the supernatural such as lies, hallucinations and faked videos.


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 05:41 PM
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^ Good point. But I think Witnesses count as evidence. OK its not as good as, say, a fossil record showing ghosts as a species but its accdeptable evidence in court for a reason.


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 05:46 PM
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^But often there are explanations why these witnesses saw such things. I'll agree, it is evidence. Its just widely accepted by the scientific community (I think) that the evidence for their existence is outweighed by the arguments against. (again, like disproving God, it is extremely difficult to get 'negative evidence'. So the main arguments revolve around logic)


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE
Anyway, we do have explanations for the supernatural such as lies, hallucinations and faked videos


Why do you say they are lies? I have seen things and heard things myself...you tellin me I am a liar and I hallucinated the things I saw?

I don't think so.

There is more hard evidence for the supernatural than God...


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 05:54 PM
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All right, I can agree with that. So would you agree that if we eliminated any other possible explanations from a witness claiming to see the "supernatural" that would be valid evidence for the existence of such things?

And btw I don't agree with the ruling of "he's just nuts" when people claim to see such things. Some of them are, and thats fine, but dismissing certain claims like that doesn't critically analyze the claims properly and is bad science.


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE(rainbowbrat @ Jan 4 2008, 05:51 PM) *

QUOTE
Anyway, we do have explanations for the supernatural such as lies, hallucinations and faked videos


Why do you say they are lies? I have seen things and heard things myself...you tellin me I am a liar and I hallucinated the things I saw?

I don't think so.

There is more hard evidence for the supernatural than God...

^I think you misinterpreted my meaning. I meant, some of the time people are lying, some of the time they are hallucinating and some of the time they are faking evidence. Overall, I don't know, but I personally am not convinced. And yes, you could have hallucinated what you saw. A friend of mine is convinced she saw fairies walking around in front of her bed when she was around 10 but that just isnt enough evidence for me to believe her.


I agree though. There is more hard evidence for the supernatural (although Id call it the 'currently unexplained by natural laws') although that hard evidence is still minimal.



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rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Jan 4 2008, 09:54 AM) *

All right, I can agree with that. So would you agree that if we eliminated any other possible explanations from a witness claiming to see the "supernatural" that would be valid evidence for the existence of such things?


No I wouldn't...(if I am understanding your statement correctly) because of EVP's and the whole dimension idea. I guess I just have to much personal experience on the topic to really not believe it..like I said..I have seen "shadow people", I have heard the EVP's, and there is no way any of it could have been faked because I was there. I saw with my own eyes...

QUOTE
And btw I don't agree with the ruling of "he's just nuts" when people claim to see such things. Some of them are, and thats fine, but dismissing certain claims like that doesn't critically analyze the claims properly and is bad science.


Not all people are nuts, and that is good you disagree with that.

My grandmother was laying on her death bed, and she was talking to her husband, smiling and laughing, telling him she would see him soon. Her husband had been dead for 10 years.

Two days later, she died.

They say that when people die, they see loved ones, and I never believed it...until I saw that.

There is just way too much proof and evidence for me to not believe. Unlike God...there is no evidence or proof...I have not seen or heard him...


QUOTE
. I meant, some of the time people are lying, some of the time they are hallucinating and some of the time they are faking evidence. Overall, I don't know, but I personally am not convinced. And yes, you could have hallucinated what you saw.

A friend of mine is convinced she saw fairies walking around in front of her bed when she was around 10 but that just isnt enough evidence for me to believe her.



I see what you are saying...but I didn't hallucinate...There would have to be a reason for the hallucination, and there was none.

as far as her seeing fairies..I don't believe that either...I mean..those are mythical creatures..never real, never alive..


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 06:10 PM
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^What about all the people who claim they have seen God then?


Why isnt their evidence reliable as well?

Surely they can't all be hallucinating or lying, one would think?



EDIT: Exactly my point RB. Why should I believe you?

Your tale sounds just as improbable.


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 4 2008, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jan 4 2008, 10:10 AM) *

^What about all the people who claim they have seen God then?


Why isnt their evidence reliable as well?

Surely they can't all be hallucinating or lying, one would think?


They thought they saw god and white lights....where are most of those people at when they claim that? Laying on a hospital bed with bright ass white lights over their heads xD

Maybe they did see god...or maybe they saw someone that has been brainwashed into their heads from years of religion? Maybe they even saw a being...maybe not god..but a being...and they know nothing else than to call it god.

Either way...There is more proof of supernatural than god.

Edit to Steiners Edit:

QUOTE
EDIT: Exactly my point RB. Why should I believe you?

Your tale sounds just as improbable.


Fairies were never real or alive...people were...THAT's the difference.


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steiner
post Jan 4 2008, 06:30 PM
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^How can you prove that fairies were never real or alive?

Why couldnt fairies exist in another dimension?

Why should the fact that your grandad has existed increase the reliability of what your grandmother saw?

How do you know your grandmother wasn't hallucinating? (did you see him as well?)

Isnt the fact that your grandfather has already died evidence against him having actually appeared? Why should it be evidence for?

What about when people hallucinate and see Jesus telling them to do certain things? Why is that less reliable?


See the problems you have. I recognise that some of those arguments are flawed, but a lot of them aren't.


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Adrammalech
post Jan 4 2008, 06:57 PM
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actually, you dont have the right to say that

we are human beings a species tat live in this earth, we are just part of this world, so we dont have the right to say that such exists or not and i doubt that we have the knowleadge to say it as well...


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Fox
post Jan 4 2008, 07:00 PM
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He has the right to say it.

But that doesn't necessarily make him correct. Fact is what makes ytoyu correct, and fact is proved by evidence!


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