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> Successful Human Embryo Clone
Resurrection
post Jan 19 2008, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Jan 19 2008, 08:50 AM) *

Are you saying we should not experiment on an amoeba?

No, like I said before about God giving man authority of other organisms.

QUOTE

As for the "potential life" argument, I don't buy it at all. If you use that thinking then every time you resist the urge to have sex you are denying potential life. I assume you are both against IVF as well for those who cannot concieve? It's lose lose here, becuawe if you deny IVF treatment you are explicitly "denying future life", but if you agree with it you are saying it's OK to kill other embryo's in order to do it, as IVF involvs planting up to 6 eggs in the womb - of which only one or two will usually survive.

Like I said before, I don't believe we have the obligation to procreate. Sperm and egg cells are not alive yet, therefore there is no obligation to preserve them.

Yes, I am against IVF. Again, the issue is not "denying future life", the issue is denying life when it has already been created. This is different from contraception because the sexual act was meant to bring forth life, and when you render this end impossible, sex is not the same.

QUOTE

Do you take the Bible literally at whatever it says or metaphorically?

It depends on the passage. I don't take most of Genesis 1 literally, but I do believe that humans are by nature different from all other organisms (spiritually) and that God gave us authority over them. Nevertheless, we still have the obligation to treat test subjects humanely and only for legitimate purposes, like the curing of disease.


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AkamaruFoxHound
post Jan 19 2008, 10:23 PM
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Cloning is nothing more than stepping on God's foot, man just wants to play god is what it seems like, cloning for science is just going to be killing a living thing, no moral is what it is, killing another human for another's scientific gain is wrong. When the thought comes into mind at least it's a friggin' natural death! the only reason why the world is overpopulated is of vaccinations and all of that other crap, that's what slows the death rate. back on topic, Cloning is an immoral excuse for people to use, killing something so thatYOU can live longer.

I find it wrong, to kill another human to make someone younger or heathier, F*** THAT! it's a LIVING, BREATHING, PERSON!!! Why would you want to kill something of your own blood? it's like a mother killing it's own child so that the mother can live longer!


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steiner
post Jan 19 2008, 11:06 PM
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It's been too long...
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^Please stop talking crap before you embarass yourself any further.

QUOTE
it's a LIVING, BREATHING, PERSON!!!

No. Just no.

Its not breathing, its not a person.

Terminating an embryo is nowhere near as bad as killing a child. A child is a creature that can feel pain and can have emotions. It is fully conscious and is alive in a true sense. On the other hand, an embryo can do none of these things. It feels nothing. It is aware of nothing. It is no different from a bunch of eggs except its a group of diploid cells instead of being a group of haploid cells. Thats it.


If you're gonna let that get in the way of some real, living person's conscious and emotional experiences then I think you're being either very cruel or very stupid.


@Resurrection: I think my comment might be misleading. The thing is, there is no real way to judge whether something is alive or not. Being alive is just a concept made up by humans. In reality, there are things which are sort of alive and things which are only just alive. Its a continuos scale. To assert that an embryo is alive is quite a bold statement seeing as you're relying on a wishy washy scientific definition instead of some kind of obvious, fully quantative analysis.


QUOTE
When a sperm and egg join together to form the zygote, doesn't it now have a full set of genes and doesn't it start developing? Even if it can't feel anything, experimenting on them for this reason would be like numbing a fully grown human and cutting off their arm in order to perform some experiment. Whether or not something has a nervous system is irrelevant, it is still alive. Are you willing to say that an amoeba is not alive?

I would say that an amoeba is not truly alive.

Anyway, if something having a full set of genes makes it alive, then does something having half that set (haploid) make it half-alive? If not, why not?

And to say whether something has a nervous system or not is not irrelevant. As Ive already said, being 'alive' is a flawed concept. Being conscious, however, is not.


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Resurrection
post Jan 20 2008, 06:13 PM
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@Steiner: I guess I see where you're coming from.

It's hard for me to understand the concept of life, how mere inorganic matter can somehow combine in a certain way to form organic molecules. And then these organic molecules form a cell, something that can function and survive on its own. Then, in the case of humans, a diploid cell multiplies itself to become billions of cells. So maybe in a natural/physical sense there is no fine line between the living and the non-living, everything is just a stage closer or further away from what society would call "life". Kind of like viruses, some biologists would call them alive, and some wouldn't.

So I guess my definition of what is "alive" is whether or not something has a soul or a spirit. And I would say that the soul is created at conception.


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steiner
post Jan 20 2008, 06:20 PM
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^Why do you believe the soul is created at conception?


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Resurrection
post Jan 20 2008, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jan 20 2008, 01:20 PM) *

^Why do you believe the soul is created at conception?

As opposed to existing before conception?

I suppose that conception is the only act that will ever bring about a human being. Sperm or egg cells by themselves will not develop, they won't become anything. Only when they join does development start, and it is the first resemblance of the developed human being that it will grow up to be.


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steiner
post Jan 20 2008, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE(Resurrection @ Jan 20 2008, 06:52 PM) *

QUOTE(steiner @ Jan 20 2008, 01:20 PM) *

^Why do you believe the soul is created at conception?

As opposed to existing before conception?

I suppose that conception is the only act that will ever bring about a human being. Sperm or egg cells by themselves will not develop, they won't become anything. Only when they join does development start, and it is the first resemblance of the developed human being that it will grow up to be.

Fair enough.

Although Id contest it being 'the first resemblance of the developed human...' Apart from it being genetically identical, its nothing like the developed human being. I suppose thats enough for you though.


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rainbowbrat
post Jan 21 2008, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE(AkamaruFoxHound @ Jan 19 2008, 02:23 PM) *

Cloning is nothing more than stepping on God's foot, man just wants to play god is what it seems like, cloning for science is just going to be killing a living thing, no moral is what it is, killing another human for another's scientific gain is wrong. When the thought comes into mind at least it's a friggin' natural death! the only reason why the world is overpopulated is of vaccinations and all of that other crap, that's what slows the death rate. back on topic, Cloning is an immoral excuse for people to use, killing something so thatYOU can live longer.

I find it wrong, to kill another human to make someone younger or heathier, F*** THAT! it's a LIVING, BREATHING, PERSON!!! Why would you want to kill something of your own blood? it's like a mother killing it's own child so that the mother can live longer!


You should read the article and read up on it so you know what we are talking about before you post. Seriously WTF is up with you?

It is not a human, it is not breathing...it is a ball of cells.

Please read and gain some knowledge of what is being debated before posting. wink.gif

Edit: I will come back and catch up on this tomorrow...right now I am off!


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BohemianAndy
post Jan 21 2008, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jan 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *

^Please stop talking crap before you embarass yourself any further.

QUOTE
it's a LIVING, BREATHING, PERSON!!!

No. Just no.

Its not breathing, its not a person.

Terminating an embryo is nowhere near as bad as killing a child. A child is a creature that can feel pain and can have emotions. It is fully conscious and is alive in a true sense. On the other hand, an embryo can do none of these things. It feels nothing. It is aware of nothing. It is no different from a bunch of eggs except its a group of diploid cells instead of being a group of haploid cells. Thats it.


If you're gonna let that get in the way of some real, living person's conscious and emotional experiences then I think you're being either very cruel or very stupid.


Hehe, I'm glad you were the first one to rebuttal that hideously ignorant post.

Back onto the research news, I'm happy that a successful human embryo clone has been created. I'm for the safe and ethical use of stem cells and embryo's for the advancement of treating serious diseases and medical conditions, such as Parkinson's. Of course pro-life groups and politicians are quite apprehensive and against the path that this research could lead to. But, with effective regulation of these therapeutic cloning processes, I believe in the huge potential benefits that this human embryo clone research can bring.

Maybe this research will give the researcher's a shot for the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.


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Paka
post Feb 19 2008, 01:28 AM
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What I don't understand-- even if we DO clone people, so what, so long as you have permission from the person cloned? A clone would be nothing more than a time-delayed twin, and would be even less like the original than a traditional twin, when you take into consideration the different uterine environments, different rearing, ect. Say a couple didn't want a biological child due to genetic risks, and adoption wasn't available, what would be so wrong about deciding, with the consent of the donor, to clone a person who had no known serious genetic faults and perhaps some advantages in life, such as traditional good looks, high intelligence, or athletic ability? No guarantee the clone would have the advantages or might not have some disadvantage of the original, but you would sure be stacking the deck in the clone's favor. And, isn't that what people who choose sperm and egg donors are doing anyway, with less accuracy? Also, you have people now having kids in the hope of having a bone marrow match for an existing child-- why not allow cloning in those cases and remove the doubt?

This post has been edited by Paka: Feb 19 2008, 01:29 AM
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