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> what was before the universe?
the x reaper
post Mar 5 2008, 08:00 PM
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if you belive the big bang happend then what was before the big bang which created the universe?


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steiner
post Mar 5 2008, 08:37 PM
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I dont know. And its possible we will never know.

This is a very difficult topic to debate.


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Fox
post Mar 5 2008, 09:08 PM
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Just space. Just the void that at the moment resides between planets and stars but before there were any planets and stars was all there was.

Although that is misleading to say "it was", seeing as the whole point of space is that it is the "absence of anything". Just like cold is the absence of heat, space is the absence of matter, and doesn't really exist in itself


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Resurrection
post Mar 5 2008, 09:13 PM
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But space still has the capacity to hold something. Is it possible that before the big bang there wasn't even space? That is, there was no "room" for anything to be "held"?


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steiner
post Mar 5 2008, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Resurrection @ Mar 5 2008, 09:13 PM) *

But space still has the capacity to hold something. Is it possible that before the big bang there wasn't even space? That is, there was no "room" for anything to be "held"?

Space was created by the big bang. Space and time were created in the Big Bang so to speak. Well thats what they say anyway. How the hell they know that I dont know.


I think the 'space is the absence of matter' definition doesn't hold up when you're dealing with complex physics. For a start, space is curved by mass. Which wouldnt make sense with that sort of definition.


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Fox
post Mar 5 2008, 09:25 PM
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SOMETHING is curved by mass that we conclude at the moment is space. OK, lets say that it is space, and this partially physical thing is what the big bang brought into existence.

Think simpler. If you are in space or looking up into it, all the black you see is essentially nothing. There is no matter there. Now imagine THAT and thats what there was before the big bang, just that big black void (which didn't technically exist...you see what I mean).

Maybe what is there after the big bang is different and has some physcial presence and effect, but just as an image to get your head round the idea of an empty void - space is perfect.


And don't get me started on time either! I'm not at all convinced it exists in any real sense!


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steiner
post Mar 5 2008, 10:08 PM
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But I think the point is that the space that there is has the capacity to hold mass. In a way, despite being filled with nothingness, it still exists. Then again, I dont know if I what I said was true.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q294.html

It dunt make any sense. But if there were a black void, wouldnt it still exist sort-of? I mean, if it were a vacuum it would still have the capacity to hold. I dont really know. Its really a debate that can only be held by the top physicists and they'll probably end up concluding that you cant know.


QUOTE
And don't get me started on time either! I'm not at all convinced it exists in any real sense!

Time is another dimension. The so called fourth dimension. And time isnt rigid. So from that I would say that time ist how stuff varies in the fourth dimension. Just like height or width or length is how stuff varies in the third dimension.



On another, intersting point, did you know that matter can come out of nothing? It just forms randomly, violating the law of conservation of energy/matter and then destroys itself a fraction of a second later.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particles


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Resurrection
post Mar 5 2008, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Mar 5 2008, 05:08 PM) *

Time is another dimension. The so called fourth dimension. And time isnt rigid. So from that I would say that time ist how stuff varies in the fourth dimension. Just like height or width or length is how stuff varies in the third dimension.

Is there really any scientific basis for this? Or is this just how some people like to explain time?

And I'm not sure what you mean by "space is curved by mass".


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Tidus1
post Mar 6 2008, 09:53 AM
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i think there was just darkness and a few big rocks floating around


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Fox
post Mar 6 2008, 12:59 PM
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Resurrection: Space being curved by mass is what creates gravity. Imagine you put a brick in the middle of a trampoline, and then rolled a ball around the edge of the trampoline. The ball would spiral in closer to the centre because the brick has curved the trampoline.

This is that basic beginnings of Einstein's general theory of relativity. Space is like a giant trampoline and mass (like planets and stars) curve it like the brick does, which creates this gravitational effect.


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steiner
post Mar 6 2008, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE(Resurrection @ Mar 5 2008, 11:40 PM) *

QUOTE(steiner @ Mar 5 2008, 05:08 PM) *

Time is another dimension. The so called fourth dimension. And time isnt rigid. So from that I would say that time ist how stuff varies in the fourth dimension. Just like height or width or length is how stuff varies in the third dimension.

Is there really any scientific basis for this? Or is this just how some people like to explain time?

Well we do know for a fact that time isnt rigid. About it being the fourth dimension, well that is kind of made up by scientists since there is no real 'fourth dimension.' It could be the fifth, the zeroth or anything like that. But it is a dimension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension


If you think about it, the concept of time being the fourth dimension sounds very plausible. If one imagines being a two dimensional creature, our viewing of a three-dimensional object would be viewing it in a infinitessimally small 2-dimensional cross-section. In our 3-dimensional world we view an infinitessimally small, 3 dimensional cross-section or a four dimensional Universe (with time being the fourth dimension). The present, as in, what's happening right now is infinitessimally small. It lasts for an infinitessimally small amount of time before it becomes the past. So the present is the infinitessimally small cross-section of the four dimensional Universe.


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Resurrection
post Mar 6 2008, 10:21 PM
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The problem with this theory is that we don't know whether or not we can go forward or backward in time. With space, a plane, or a line, you can go wherever you want (and it's not that hard to figure out how to do it). But besides that it's a cool theory.


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Fox
post Mar 6 2008, 10:56 PM
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Forward in time I think may be theoretically possible, but I don't think backwards is.

For example, you draw a line on the ground. This represents time. You walk 5 steps along it, this is progressing through time at the normal rate. Now, you can start jogging or jump forwards and you move forwards in time. But walking backwards doesn't take you back in time.

You see, in order to move backwards in time, you would have to untake the steps you already made going forwards. And whichever direction you move along the line in you can't undo those steps taken.

It's not a great analogy but the gyst is: once something is done you can't undo it in the first place. And thats what you would need to do to go backwards in time, I think.


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Resurrection
post Mar 7 2008, 02:10 AM
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Yeah, not the best analogy, but I think that our idea that "we can't undo time" comes the fact that we've never known anything other than progressing from the past toward the future. I don't see humans ever figuring out a way to travel time if it's possible, but I guess you never know.


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Stealth
post Mar 7 2008, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Mar 5 2008, 02:08 PM) *
Just space. Just the void that at the moment resides between planets and stars but before there were any planets and stars was all there was.

Although that is misleading to say "it was", seeing as the whole point of space is that it is the "absence of anything". Just like cold is the absence of heat, space is the absence of matter, and doesn't really exist in itself


I'm sorry, but you're just hilariously wrong.

QUOTE

The problem with this theory is that we don't know whether or not we can go forward or backward in time. With space, a plane, or a line, you can go wherever you want (and it's not that hard to figure out how to do it). But besides that it's a cool theory.


There's a reason Einstein called it spacetime. They are inseperable from each other by the way they interact.

QUOTE

Resurrection: Space being curved by mass is what creates gravity. Imagine you put a brick in the middle of a trampoline, and then rolled a ball around the edge of the trampoline. The ball would spiral in closer to the centre because the brick has curved the trampoline

No it's not. We don't know what 'creates' gravity, but we know that all MASS has a gravitational pull. In electricity, we have positive and negative particles that create certain charges. In magnetism, we have North and South poles that "create" magnetism, --I use create very loosely here--. However, we know of no particles that carry gravity.

The brick on a trampoline analogy is an example of how gravity caused by mass bends spacetime around it.


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Fox
post Mar 7 2008, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE
I'm sorry, but you're just hilariously wrong.


Oh, that's good. There was me worried you ewre gonna be VAUGUE about that.

And good point re the brick analogy but all you did was put my terms into more accurate language. OK, spacetime is curved by gravity rather than the mass but seeing as it is the mass that creates gravity it's a moot point. That's like me saying "I hit the tennis ball" and then you saying "Actually, the RACKET hit the tennis ball".

Your comment about spacetime seems irrelevant too. So, space affects time and time affects space. And its true when we travel forward in space we travel forward in time. But then, whatever direction we travel in in space we travel forward in time. So hitting reverse in space doesn't reverse time, which is what your statement would seem to imply.

It does not, therefore you need to elaborate.

And once again, why am I hilariously wrong? That's a pretty bold statement and I wouldnt mind a detailed explanation why that is. Its not like I'm COMPLETELY ignorant of scientific theory (though I am a layman), and I have put alot of thought into the matter. So right or wrong, reasons why would be useful.


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steiner
post Mar 7 2008, 09:00 PM
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^Stealth sure enjoys sounding controversial rolleyes.gif

Gravitons cause gravity silly! Sure, they havent been discovered but we've discovered the gluon, the photon, the bosons. Its surely only a matter of time.

The problem with discovering it according to some String theorists is they hypothesise that gravity is so weak due to leakage into higher dimensions. If you look at the magnitude of the forces relative to the strong force:

Strong force: 1
Weak Force: 10^-5
Electromagnetism: 10^-2
Gravity: 10^-40

So gravity is weird due to its extreme weakness. Perhaps its evidence for more dimensions... Physisicsts are strange people though. They ask questions like 'What gives an object mass?' After all, stuff can exist and not have mass. It turns out the Higgs Boson causes mass. Not that that explains much to me.

All intereactions between fundamental forces are caused by an exchange of these fundamental particles. And it make zero sense. tongue.gif

Oh, and if you travel close to the speed of light, time slows down. Theoretically, if you traveled faster than light you'd be going backwards in time. But of course, travelling faster than light is impossible.


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Resurrection
post Mar 7 2008, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Mar 7 2008, 08:32 AM) *

And good point re the brick analogy but all you did was put my terms into more accurate language. OK, spacetime is curved by gravity rather than the mass but seeing as it is the mass that creates gravity it's a moot point. That's like me saying "I hit the tennis ball" and then you saying "Actually, the RACKET hit the tennis ball".

I was wondering whether your explanation was correct or not. Because according to my chemistry teacher, we have no idea how gravity works.

QUOTE(steiner @ Mar 7 2008, 04:00 PM) *

The problem with discovering it according to some String theorists is they hypothesise that gravity is so weak due to leakage into higher dimensions. If you look at the magnitude of the forces relative to the strong force:

Strong force: 1
Weak Force: 10^-5
Electromagnetism: 10^-2
Gravity: 10^-40

Can you explain this "strong force" and "weak force"?


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Stealth
post Mar 7 2008, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Mar 7 2008, 06:32 AM) *
QUOTE
I'm sorry, but you're just hilariously wrong.


Oh, that's good. There was me worried you ewre gonna be VAUGUE about that.

And good point re the brick analogy but all you did was put my terms into more accurate language. OK, spacetime is curved by gravity rather than the mass but seeing as it is the mass that creates gravity it's a moot point. That's like me saying "I hit the tennis ball" and then you saying "Actually, the RACKET hit the tennis ball".

Your comment about spacetime seems irrelevant too. So, space affects time and time affects space. And its true when we travel forward in space we travel forward in time. But then, whatever direction we travel in in space we travel forward in time. So hitting reverse in space doesn't reverse time, which is what your statement would seem to imply.

It does not, therefore you need to elaborate.

And once again, why am I hilariously wrong? That's a pretty bold statement and I wouldnt mind a detailed explanation why that is. Its not like I'm COMPLETELY ignorant of scientific theory (though I am a layman), and I have put alot of thought into the matter. So right or wrong, reasons why would be useful.


Well for one, space isn't just the absence of matter. "Space" was created during the big bang as we know it as well as time. Also, cold isn't the absence of heat. Cold is just a descriptor to describe the kinetic energy of particles.

And the reason spacetime is inseperable IS because of general and special relativity. Take for example, a black hole. If you're looking at a watch near a black hole, time will slow down compared to someone nowhere near the black hole. The closer you get in fact, the slower time will get relative to a further fixed position. Inside a black hole, time would stop completely. Your watch would not tick.

QUOTE

OK, spacetime is curved by gravity rather than the mass but seeing as it is the mass that creates gravity it's a moot point

Again, mass doesn't "create" gravity. Until we find a fundamental particle of gravity, we don't how what creates it. We do know how mass and gravity interact through the universal law of gravitation.

QUOTE

The problem with discovering it according to some String theorists is they hypothesise that gravity is so weak due to leakage into higher dimensions. If you look at the magnitude of the forces relative to the strong force:

Gravity is also the most important force in the universe across a widescale. In fact, none of the other forces are able to apply to such giant distances. The only other force is dark energy, and we know nothing about that.

Also, string theory is a horrible theory. Call me when it's a legitimate falsifiable theory.



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Fox
post Mar 7 2008, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE
And the reason spacetime is inseperable IS because of general and special relativity. Take for example, a black hole. If you're looking at a watch near a black hole, time will slow down compared to someone nowhere near the black hole. The closer you get in fact, the slower time will get relative to a further fixed position. Inside a black hole, time would stop completely. Your watch would not tick.


I would just love to hear how this is tested. As far as I'm aware there are no pockets of dense time here on earth where we can test this out...my guess is this comes from watching the rate at which light falls in to black holes?

If there's another way of coming up with this than please tell me. Cause unless it's a tested and observed phenomenon, you're arguing that your theory is correct by rattling off conclusions that are unproven and only true IF your theory is correct!!

I'm not saying I defintely disagree with the theory of relativity and such, but I am skeptical.


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