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> what was before the universe?
Stealth
post Mar 8 2008, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Mar 7 2008, 04:48 PM) *
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And the reason spacetime is inseperable IS because of general and special relativity. Take for example, a black hole. If you're looking at a watch near a black hole, time will slow down compared to someone nowhere near the black hole. The closer you get in fact, the slower time will get relative to a further fixed position. Inside a black hole, time would stop completely. Your watch would not tick.


I would just love to hear how this is tested. As far as I'm aware there are no pockets of dense time here on earth where we can test this out...my guess is this comes from watching the rate at which light falls in to black holes?

If there's another way of coming up with this than please tell me. Cause unless it's a tested and observed phenomenon, you're arguing that your theory is correct by rattling off conclusions that are unproven and only true IF your theory is correct!!

I'm not saying I defintely disagree with the theory of relativity and such, but I am skeptical.


It is an affect of a strong gravitational field. This is because gravity interacts with space, or rather spacetime. Again, they're inseperable. Also, light doesn't "fall" into a black hole. It is bent into it, much like how gravitational lensing happens. Have you heard of the equivalence principle? It basically states that the effects of gravity are exactly the same as the effects of acceleration. This is because gravity does indeed cause a great acceleration. Now think for a moment, the closer you get to a black hole, the stronger the gravitational field is. Past the event horizon of a black hole, the gravitational acceleration is larger than the speed of light. From there, it's a simple application of the time dilation principle.

We've also proven this to be true by ways of orbits. Clocks in orbits, and clocks on earth can be synchronized, but they will eventually become unsynched because of the speed of orbits. It's the same thing.

But it's nice to know you just asked me to prove Special and General relativity, you do realize it was basically the pinnacle of Einstein's work?


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steiner
post Mar 8 2008, 01:25 PM
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It's been too long...
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Can you explain this "strong force" and "weak force"?

You know that the atom has nucleus made of protons and neutrons? The protons in the nucleus are positively charged so they should repel each other and move away. But they dont. The reason they stay together is because they are held together by the strong nuclear force. That only happens though if there is a sufficient number of neutrons in relation to the number of protons. The strong force is caused by gluons.

The weak nuclear force is to do with interactions like radioactivity (beta decay) and stuff like that. Its caused by W and Z bosons.


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Also, string theory is a horrible theory. Call me when it's a legitimate falsifiable theory

Just because its neither provable nor disprovable at the moment doesnt make it 'horrible'. I think you're being close-minded. The maths involved is highly complex and powerful and cannot be easily ignored. And just because it is not falsifiable at the moment does not necessarily mean it will not be falsifiable in the future. The very fact that quite a lot of eminent physicists respect the theory is testament to its intellectual weight.



But yes, the theory of relativity was proved by Einstein pretty much.


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Stealth
post Mar 9 2008, 12:29 AM
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And quite a lot of physicists also think it's a load of shit. Simple fact is that you can hardly call it a "theory" if you can't falsify it. It's not on the level of say, the big bang theory, which we actually have strong physical evidence to support.

Maybe some day it will be a viable theory, but until then, throwing it around like it's any sort of authority is pretty absurd.


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BohemianAndy
post Mar 9 2008, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Mar 8 2008, 10:25 PM) *

But yes, the theory of relativity was proved by Einstein pretty much.


Indeed - physicists have tried for over 70 years to disprove it, but still haven't been able to.


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Paka
post Mar 9 2008, 05:51 AM
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I posted this in the Literature forum, but it probably has a place here, too-

Starting to get into the book, Endless Universe: Beyond the Big Bang by Paul J. Steinhardt and Neil Turok. These two physicists put forth an alternative modifying the Big Bang theory, that of an endless cyclic universe, that is very compelling and creating a lot of talk. In their theory, there WAS a "before" the Big Bang. A summation is here- The Endless Universe: Introduction to the Cyclic Universe (ActionBioscience)

Other scientists who have played with the idea that I've read about seem to come to the conclusion that entropy increasing makes it impossible, but these two seem to have found the way around it; in their model, entropy does not build up.

I've always been kind of fascinated by some cultures' cyclic models of existence, Nietzsche's Eternal Return/Recurrence, ect., so this is pretty interesting for me. Though, an endlessly repeating cycle might not necessitate the Eternal Return (I saw a mathematical model which seemed to show that a finite number of particles in an infinite cycle would not necessarily have to repeat in placement). Still, it is an interesting concept to think about.
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Fox
post Mar 9 2008, 03:52 PM
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@ Stealth.

That's all well and good and I understand the principles pretty much, but have we tried the clocks in orbit thing? Have we gone into the event horizon of a black hole to see how it works?

I don't accept that anything is proven until I see results of experiments and the like that demonstrate the effects a theory predicts. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that for something accepted as fact I don't see the experimental evidence backing it up.


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Stealth
post Mar 10 2008, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Mar 9 2008, 09:52 AM) *
@ Stealth.

That's all well and good and I understand the principles pretty much, but have we tried the clocks in orbit thing? Have we gone into the event horizon of a black hole to see how it works?

I don't accept that anything is proven until I see results of experiments and the like that demonstrate the effects a theory predicts. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that for something accepted as fact I don't see the experimental evidence backing it up.


We already have experimental data on the subject from both mathematics, and orbital testing (using high speeds).

I'm not sure what we could accomplish by sending a clock to a black hole that we don't already know. Not to mention that we could never really send something to a black hole, seeing how they are very far away (dozens of lightyears at the least). What you're basically saying is that you want to accept only certain kinds of evidence, and not others.


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Fox
post Mar 10 2008, 02:28 PM
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No, Evidence that is based on the assumption that your theory is correct I won't accept. Is it so much to want to see the effects of time dialation in action before I accept it as truth?

Time being a physical thing that is affected by gravity is a pretty major claim, and I think the burden lies with those claiming it to say "here, we did this which shows the effects of time dilation actually happening". All I'm hearing it at the moment is "Well we havn't actually seen it happening, but it has been proven".

Please, elaborate on this "experimental data". Because if the evidence is THERE and we have this data showing time dilation in action, the I'd like to see it. If it's happening and we have hard evidence that can SHOW it's happening, rather than equations based on the assumption that we're right, then I'll accept it however hard it is to get my head around.

Until that is presented to me though I remain skeptical. Just as I'm skeptical about religion I'm not going to accept something as true "Just because Einsten said it". Thats an assumption based on faith and any "skeptic" who does think like that is a hypocrite with double standards.


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Stealth
post Mar 11 2008, 02:30 AM
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Now you're just willfully ignorant. I already told you we can see the effects on time dilation through our experiments in orbital speeds. It is also something Einstein proved, (NOT MY THEORY) in his famous theories.

I hate to say it, but you're now just being retarded.

Here, just read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation...al_confirmation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation...nd_space_flight

This post has been edited by Stealth: Mar 11 2008, 02:32 AM


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Fox
post Mar 11 2008, 02:37 PM
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Hey. You know when I ask you to show me evidence it might be an idea to post those links up BEFORE you start calling me retarded. When I asked you for evidence before all you did was assert that you were right, it might have been an idea to link me to those pages that time instead.

Thanks for those links that you DID post this time, that's more or less what I asked for and they look good.

Hey, look at that, I CAN be reasonable when people actually supply the details I ask for. Who would have thought it?


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rainbowbrat
post Mar 11 2008, 07:36 PM
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I dunno what I just saw.........
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That was a little harsh Stealth...usually you can start the name calling AFTER they have the info needed.....



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Stealth
post Mar 13 2008, 03:31 AM
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Silly me, I thought people would do their research before arguing against the special relativity, of all things. The burden of proof wasn't on me anyway.


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rainbowbrat
post Mar 13 2008, 03:32 AM
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I dunno what I just saw.........
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but when someone asks you to post proof of your point, the burden is on you wink.gif


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Fox
post Mar 13 2008, 10:42 AM
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Precisely. Its not my job to hunt down evidence to support YOUR argument. It isn't difficult.

And to clarify, I was arguing against the evidence YOU provided me at the time. You see in a debate, it's your job to supply the information to persudae the person you're debating against. Which you succeeded at!

Unfortunatly that was only after you got all childish with the name-calling.


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steiner
post Mar 13 2008, 12:45 PM
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It's been too long...
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Stealth's always like that. He's a bit of an idiot tbh. tongue.gif





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steiner
post Mar 13 2008, 12:45 PM
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It's been too long...
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Stealth's always like that. He's a bit of an idiot tbh. tongue.gif





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rainbowbrat
post Mar 13 2008, 01:36 PM
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I dunno what I just saw.........
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No wonder you two get along so well tongue.gif




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steiner
post Mar 13 2008, 01:53 PM
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It's been too long...
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^Notice how I repeated my post again to emphasise my point? wink.gif


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rainbowbrat
post Mar 13 2008, 02:11 PM
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I dunno what I just saw.........
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LMAO...yes I did you beautiful creature you tongue.gif

/spam


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Resurrection
post Mar 13 2008, 02:21 PM
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I was under the impression that the double-post was a mistake due to lag or whatever...but apparently not.


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