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> what was before the universe?
Marblefist
post May 30 2008, 10:15 PM
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LOL you dont, though they are developing a huuuuuuge particle accelerator thingy in a european country i forget haha But yeah they are gonna try and suss out the "God" particle there. Whether or not they find the answers they want remains to be seen.


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steiner
post May 30 2008, 10:19 PM
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Oh yeah, the Large Hadron Collider in CERN (Switzerland bordered with France)

I remember people were scared they would create a mini-blackhole that would swallow the world.

They could also find Higg's boson and supersymmetry and other weird stuff that you're probably better off not knowing about.


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Marblefist
post May 30 2008, 10:24 PM
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Yeah, did you see the Stephen Hawking show on C4 recently? very very interesting if perhaps a mite fantastical. The project at Cern does seem a bit pointless in the grand scheme of things though, i honestly cant really envision the advantages of discovering the particle, perhaps there is something they aren't telling us.


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steiner
post May 30 2008, 10:29 PM
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^I saw one part of a Stephen Hawking's life history episode. Was that what you meant?


I dont know if the LHC will help with an understanding of quantum physics. If it does, it could help build quantum computers. You know, the guy who made blackberry invested millions into studying quantum. It's could be the future of technology.


Anyway, ultimately they all want a 'Grand Theory of Everything'. That explains every 'rule' in nature. If they do that they would have finally learnt all the rules to how the Universe works. Of course, they'll still have stuff to do. Knowing all the rules isnt good enough if you want to play the game well.


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Marblefist
post May 30 2008, 10:35 PM
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Yeah that documentary. I didnt realise his condition was degenerative to the extent he can only use a single muscle in his cheek :S

But yeah, kindve raises the ethical question that if we reach the stage of being "Gods" as it were, is that ethical? There are so many grey areas, shit like this is the weed of science lol teh accesory drug


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Resurrection
post May 31 2008, 12:30 AM
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QUOTE(Stealth @ May 30 2008, 03:52 AM) *

Except there is no physical edge of the universe. And there is space everywhere. Please stop pulling theories out of your anus.

I've heard of this before, but how can the universe be expanding and this be true at the same time?


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Stealth
post May 31 2008, 04:49 AM
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QUOTE(Resurrection @ May 30 2008, 06:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Stealth @ May 30 2008, 03:52 AM) *

Except there is no physical edge of the universe. And there is space everywhere. Please stop pulling theories out of your anus.

I've heard of this before, but how can the universe be expanding and this be true at the same time?


A few things, the "shape" of the universe, along with how the universe is expanding. It's not just the edges that are stretching out, but the space between galaxies is expanding everywhere. Everything is moving away from everything else.

And quite frankly, it does us no good to speculate on the edge of the universe, unless you somehow want to prove a multiverse theory. Even then, there are better ways to go about it. Currently, the observable universe is only 14 billion light years or so. There is stuff beyond it however.

QUOTE

But yeah, kindve raises the ethical question that if we reach the stage of being "Gods" as it were, is that ethical? There are so many grey areas, shit like this is the weed of science lol teh accesory drug


I don't know how this is at all an ethical question. What's wrong with wanting to know how the universe works? It might raise some philosophical questions as to why we're in this universe, but there are no ethics involved here.


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Marblefist
post Jun 1 2008, 07:52 AM
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The way i see it, perhaps from a religious viewpoint is that, if this "God" particle is found then it could lead to humans entering ground previously associated with God e.g. creation, in the same why as say cloning. There is nothing wrong with knowing how the universe works but knowlegde is often used to achieve a goal of some sort, they must believe something will come out of this endeavour otherwise i doubt they wouldve pumped so much money into it.


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Stealth
post Jun 1 2008, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE(Marblefist @ Jun 1 2008, 01:52 AM) *
The way i see it, perhaps from a religious viewpoint is that, if this "God" particle is found then it could lead to humans entering ground previously associated with God e.g. creation, in the same why as say cloning. There is nothing wrong with knowing how the universe works but knowlegde is often used to achieve a goal of some sort, they must believe something will come out of this endeavour otherwise i doubt they wouldve pumped so much money into it.


I think you're referring to something called "God of the gaps." Basically, the more you discover about the world and universe around us, the less you have to rely on God for the answers. It's been around for ages, and finding a new particle will hardly do anything.

Quite frankly, it's a silly notion presented by scientists attempting to disprove God. I for one, will never give up my faith, regardless of my love of science.

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.


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steiner
post Jun 1 2008, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE
Quite frankly, it's a silly notion presented by scientists attempting to disprove God.

I disagree. I would say its a clever response to the 'argument' presented by some religious people that just because we can't explain something, there must be a God. Its not an argument to disprove God at all, I don't know where you got that from. It is just an argument that shows that people often see acts of God, when in reality there are logical explanations as to why they happened.


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Marblefist
post Jun 1 2008, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE
It is just an argument that shows that people often see acts of God, when in reality there are logical explanations as to why they happened.

But then it begs the question, could these acts not still be acts of God? Things need not necessarily be all magical and shit lol I do not know the nature of God so it is also arguable that God does heal ppl and feed ppl etc. It may just be a different manifestation today. I personally believe that religion and science can coexist, despite havin christian beliefs, i genuinely believe that there surely is a source behind it all. What is the source behind God? Well i cant answer that, i can only have faith in the concept of God as a God.


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Stealth
post Jun 1 2008, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jun 1 2008, 05:24 AM) *
QUOTE
Quite frankly, it's a silly notion presented by scientists attempting to disprove God.

I disagree. I would say its a clever response to the 'argument' presented by some religious people that just because we can't explain something, there must be a God. Its not an argument to disprove God at all, I don't know where you got that from. It is just an argument that shows that people often see acts of God, when in reality there are logical explanations as to why they happened.


I can guarantee you that the term was not coined by religious people. That's not even how faith works.


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Resurrection
post Jun 1 2008, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jun 1 2008, 07:24 AM) *

I disagree. I would say its a clever response to the 'argument' presented by some religious people that just because we can't explain something, there must be a God. Its not an argument to disprove God at all, I don't know where you got that from. It is just an argument that shows that people often see acts of God, when in reality there are logical explanations as to why they happened.

I think Einstein's view of God is very interesting and original. Some people perceive miracles in the world and see that as evidence for God. Einstein, on the other hand, perceived no miracles and thought that the universe's order, lack of miracles, and causal nature were excellent reasons for believing in God. If there were no miracles in the world, I might feel the exact same way. So basically, I'm reiterating what marblefist said. The logical order of the universe can even be argued to magnify his existence.


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steiner
post Jun 6 2008, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE
But then it begs the question, could these acts not still be acts of God? Things need not necessarily be all magical and shit lol I do not know the nature of God so it is also arguable that God does heal ppl and feed ppl etc. It may just be a different manifestation today. I personally believe that religion and science can coexist, despite havin christian beliefs, i genuinely believe that there surely is a source behind it all. What is the source behind God? Well i cant answer that, i can only have faith in the concept of God as a God.

All that argument really shows is that God isnt neccessary, not that God doesnt exist. So yeah, the laws of physics could have been Gods work. I wont deny that religion and science can coexist. All science has done is massively reduced religion's role. At the moment we can explain pretty much everything all the way up to a split second before the big bang in sufficient detail (according to my phy teacher). So the role of God, if any, has been diminished by science.

Then again, my main beef with the Christian God is his description as 'omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipresent.' He's also supposed to be personal. I just don't buy that at all, because I think the world would be very different if that were true.

QUOTE
I can guarantee you that the term was not coined by religious people. That's not even how faith works.

I know. 'The God of the gaps' was in response to arguments put forward by religious people. Religious people were saying 'You cant explain XYZ without invoking God. Therefore God exists'. That argument is flawed because its bassically saying there must be a God because of scientific gaps in knowledge, and not because of some valid reason. As you must know, arguments from personal incredulity have been proven to be wrong time and time again. Just because people dont know the scientific explanation at the moment, it doesnt mean there isnt explanation at all.

QUOTE
I think Einstein's view of God is very interesting and original. Some people perceive miracles in the world and see that as evidence for God. Einstein, on the other hand, perceived no miracles and thought that the universe's order, lack of miracles, and causal nature were excellent reasons for believing in God. If there were no miracles in the world, I might feel the exact same way. So basically, I'm reiterating what marblefist said. The logical order of the universe can even be argued to magnify his existence.

I've seen some websites claim that Einstein was religious. In actual fact, Einstein had very complex views on religion. He certainly didnt believe in a personal God, such as the one described in the Bible. I remember hearing that they think he subscribed to Spinoza's way of thinking, at least to some extent, and he often saw God as a sort of force.

Oh, and remember 'God does not play dice.' That isn't really evidence to say he believed in God. It was more a metaphor for his view of the Universe. He argued that the Universe could not be based on chance and that quantum mechanics must therefore be wrong. Turns out he was wrong. Quantum mechanics is right - well it is the most accurate theory in the history of mankind.


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Resurrection
post Jun 6 2008, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Jun 6 2008, 04:43 AM) *

I've seen some websites claim that Einstein was religious. In actual fact, Einstein had very complex views on religion. He certainly didnt believe in a personal God, such as the one described in the Bible. I remember hearing that they think he subscribed to Spinoza's way of thinking, at least to some extent, and he often saw God as a sort of force.

I read "Einstein: His Life and Universe" by Walter Isaacson and it quotes Einstein saying he was religious. No he did not believe in a personal God, but he did believe in an impersonal God. Kind of like Deism.

QUOTE(steiner @ Jun 6 2008, 04:43 AM) *

Oh, and remember 'God does not play dice.' That isn't really evidence to say he believed in God. It was more a metaphor for his view of the Universe. He argued that the Universe could not be based on chance and that quantum mechanics must therefore be wrong. Turns out he was wrong. Quantum mechanics is right - well it is the most accurate theory in the history of mankind.

That's true, but I'm pretty sure he was actually referring to some sort of Being, even if it was an impersonal one. But maybe he wasn't wrong...quantum mechanics may be extremely accurate, but we have no way of knowing whether or not it is complete, do we? I think that was Einstein's problem with it, not that it wasn't accurate, but that that the universe was not based on chance, and that there was something missing from the theory.


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post Jun 12 2008, 11:27 PM
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I've read a few bits and pieces on Einstein and sources seem to disagree on his religious views. I don't care either way myself, he was a genius! General relativity is a brilliant theory with or without the "= God" at the end!

Aned I'd also agree that science and religion CAN co-exist.....depending on what you believe. Science and creationism, for example, does not mix. But metaphorical interpretations of the bible get along much better.


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Resurrection
post Jun 14 2008, 01:37 PM
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I am going to give a quote from Einstein:

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a sniffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and is this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man."


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AkamaruFoxHound
post Jun 20 2008, 01:44 AM
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Mind if I may add in, my mind is a little fogged, this is about the "shape" of the universe

the shape is more of a perposed geometric theory, since the idea is also based around the number of dimentions. the is a belief that there is a ten dimentional universe- the normal three we have knowledge of, plus time, and six other dimentions. it lies within the complex Calabi-Yau manifolds (six dimentions). Theorists are interested in these shapes, they believe that the complex geometry dictates the laws of particle physics and influences gravity, cosmic inflation, and dark energy. According to a string theory the number of possible Calabi-Yau shapes is linked to the number of possible universes--- a "multiverse", as it's sometimes called. the problem in cosmology and physics is deterimining the shape of an extra dimention.Researchers have tried to desribe the shapes as ice cream cones, throats, cigars, gloves, and even ant eaters.a "throat" is a common defect found in the Calabi-Yau space (a natural cone shape potrusion). the throat becomes more distended and warped by magnetic fields, or fluxes, posited by the string theory. any type of the Calabi-Yau space is likely to have more than one warped throat.

If I've gone off topic... oh well


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