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> Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell ?
KeyWielder
post Oct 13 2006, 02:22 AM
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Just thought it would be an interesting debate. Since i am religious I believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

opinions, please ?


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Resurrection
post Oct 13 2006, 05:30 PM
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As a Christian, yes, I believe in Heaven and Hell.


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Cheeky25
post Oct 13 2006, 08:13 PM
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Yes, I'm a Christian.


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steiner
post Oct 13 2006, 08:59 PM
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No, Im an atheist.


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Cheeky25
post Oct 13 2006, 11:04 PM
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Hmm, I don't see this going anywhere lol. People stating pretty basic things, me included.


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Resurrection
post Oct 14 2006, 12:46 PM
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How do you define the term "evil"? I define it as selfishness. That's basically all it is. Here's a dictionary definition of "evil": "the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin". And basically all sin is caused by selfishness. Now, there is definetely selfishness in the world. People don't care about other people unless there is something in it for them. That goes for all humans. How do you define "evil"? Or do you not define it because you believe that it does not exist?

This post has been edited by Snake: Apr 25 2012, 04:03 PM


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post Oct 14 2006, 03:56 PM
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I don't believe that if you believe in good you HAVE to believe in evil, but personally I do. I can't decide whether there's any life after death, although I hope there is. I'm not a chrisitan, but I believe there may be a God. Although the God I think of is not all powerful, all loving and all those other qualities.

So at the moment: No, I can't say I believe in heavan.


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andrzej
post Oct 14 2006, 06:25 PM
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simply put:

I don't believe in heaven or hell


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steiner
post Oct 14 2006, 07:32 PM
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I believe that if there is an all loving God eg. the Christian God, then I believe that there would be no hell.

This is because if the God punishes the person through excruciating pain I believe that he is sinking down to their level of wickedness and I believe no all loving God would do this.

I dont believe in an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God for this reason:

If God is all knowing, he created every person, already knowing what actions they would do in the whole of their life. Therefore, he would have created Hitler, knowing that he would kill millions of people. However, if God is all loving, why did he create Hitler, when he knew that he would kill millions?

Either God is not all loving and didnt care that millions suffered, or he is not all powerful and was not able to prevent Hitler from causing so much pain, or he is not all knowing and didnt know what Hitler would do.

This proves that there cannot be an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God.

Therefore I do not believe in heaven or hell


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Resurrection
post Oct 14 2006, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 14 2006, 03:32 PM) *

I believe that if there is an all loving God eg. the Christian God, then I believe that there would be no hell.

This is because if the God punishes the person through excruciating pain I believe that he is sinking down to their level of wickedness and I believe no all loving God would do this.

I dont believe in an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God for this reason:

If God is all knowing, he created every person, already knowing what actions they would do in the whole of their life. Therefore, he would have created Hitler, knowing that he would kill millions of people. However, if God is all loving, why did he create Hitler, when he knew that he would kill millions?

Either God is not all loving and didnt care that millions suffered, or he is not all powerful and was not able to prevent Hitler from causing so much pain, or he is not all knowing and didnt know what Hitler would do.

This proves that there cannot be an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God.

Therefore I do not believe in heaven or hell

This doesn't prove anything. Just because you think differently from other people doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong. Christianity teaches that humans cannot understand God's ways, so His intellect and reasoning are infinitely superior to all of ours, no matter how convincing an arguement may seem. And how do you know that you've thought of every possible explanation for the existence of hell if there really was an all-loving god?

And for your comment on Hitler, God gives us free will. If He didn't, we would be mad at Him. Since humans cannot understand God's ways, we would not understand why He would not let us do certain actions (sins) even though they may seem harmless. Let's face it--no one knows why certain Christian sins are found disgusting by God, but they are, and who are we to argue with an all-knowing God?

When God punishes someone by sending the soul to hell, He is painfully granting the condemned soul its wish. The human was unwilling to give up his sins, and he pays the consequences. God does not wish that one soul goes to hell. He wants everyone to live with Him in Heaven.

And maybe my reasoning is wrong. Humans cannot understand God's ways.


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steiner
post Oct 14 2006, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE
This doesn't prove anything. Just because you think differently from other people doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong. Christianity teaches that humans cannot understand God's ways, so His intellect and reasoning are infinitely superior to all of ours, no matter how convincing an arguement may seem.

To me, and I mean no offence, that just seems like a get out of jail clause. So when someone fails to understand why the world is as it is you instead of using logical arguments opt for saying 'We can never understand why God does things.' The whole point of a debate corner is that us humans argue logically over a certain issue. As soon as you resort to arguments such as 'humans can never understand so and so', in my book you have lost the argument. What would happen if you gave the same reply to every debate?

QUOTE
And for your comment on Hitler, God gives us free will. If He didn't, we would be mad at Him.

I aknowledge that God is said to have given people free-will. However, if God knows that someone eg. Hitler is going to kill loads of other people, then why does he not protect those people. Instead he just allows them to suffer.

QUOTE
When God punishes someone by sending the soul to hell, He is painfully granting the condemned soul its wish. The human was unwilling to give up his sins, and he pays the consequences. God does not wish that one soul goes to hell. He wants everyone to live with Him in Heaven.

Just to illustrate my point. If God is all knowing. When he creates every soul, he already knows what free-will actions that person will commit. So God created Hitler's soul, already knowing what free-will choices and actions he would make. Does it not seem strange that he diid not prevent him commiting such atrocities while he had the chance?

Also, I believe that pain is a crude way of condemning a soul. Surely an omniscient God must know a better way?

This post has been edited by steiner: Oct 14 2006, 10:26 PM


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post Oct 14 2006, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 14 2006, 06:23 PM) *

QUOTE
And for your comment on Hitler, God gives us free will. If He didn't, we would be mad at Him.

I aknowledge that God is said to have given people free-will. However, if God knows that someone eg. Hitler is going to kill loads of other people, then why does he not protect those people. Instead he just allows them to suffer.

Face it. We've all lied, cheated, or have done something wrong in our life. Just because stealing a pack of gum doesn't involve killing millions of people does not mean that the two are incomparable. Both sins are forgivable. God would have to refrain from creating one single human in order to "protect those people". Would you rather have no life at all (if God creates no humans because He knows that they will sin) or risk being mistreated (if God creates humans and gives them free will, knowing that they will sin against other humans)? I opt for the second option. This can also answer the question "Why would a loving God allow the innocent to suffer?"

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 14 2006, 06:23 PM) *

QUOTE
This doesn't prove anything. Just because you think differently from other people doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong. Christianity teaches that humans cannot understand God's ways, so His intellect and reasoning are infinitely superior to all of ours, no matter how convincing an arguement may seem.

To me, and I mean no offence, that just seems like a get out of jail clause. So when someone fails to understand why the world is as it is you instead of using logical arguments opt for saying 'We can never understand why God does things.' The whole point of a debate corner is that us humans argue logically over a certain issue. As soon as you resort to arguments such as 'humans can never understand so and so', in my book you have lost the argument. What would happen if you gave the same reply to every debate?

What if a mentally retarded person commits murder, and doesn't understand why it is wrong? It is the same between God and humans. I'm just trying to point out a certain truth that I believe in.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 14 2006, 06:23 PM) *

Also, I believe that pain is a crude way of condemning a soul. Surely an omniscient God must know a better way?

http://www.net-burst.net/hot/index.htm

I don't know how to explain it any more than this site does. Go to number 10 under the heading "Contents".

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Oct 15 2006, 07:44 PM


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big pimpin
post Oct 15 2006, 01:51 AM
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i've grown up in church all my life and i believe in god, heaven, and hell. thats all i have to say about it.


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steiner
post Oct 15 2006, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE
Face it. We've all lied, cheated, or have done something wrong in our life. Just because stealing a pack of gum doesn't involve killing millions of people does not mean that the two are incomparable. Both are sins, and there is no fine line between two sins (there is actually one exception to this rule but that is different). Both sins are forgivable. God would have to refrain from creating one single human in order to "protect those people". Would you rather have no life at all (if God creates no humans because He knows that they will sin) or risk being mistreated (if God creates humans and gives them free will, knowing that they will sin against other humans)? I opt for the second option.

I would rather that God does not create people who will do terrible crimes such as murder. There is a massive difference between stealing a pack of gum and murder. I agree that no one can be perfect, but millions of people definately do more good than bad. There is no need to stop them from existing. But I think mass genicide should be stopped. If a new born baby dies of disease is that his punishment for all the wrongs he has committed?

Also, life would still exist even if Hitler and other murderers didnt exist. In fact, many more good people would have gotten to live happy lives. I just cant understand how an all loving God can create people who he knows will commit so much evil. I also cant understand why he does not protect those people eg. Through a miracle. It also seems to me that the Christian God uses miracles arbritrarily, eg healing some and letting others die. In one story, Jesus heals a paralysed man. But I find it strange how God was the one who made him paralysed in the first place. Also, why is there disease?

There are too many unanswered questions for me, to logically believe in an all loving, all knowing, all powerful God.

QUOTE

What if a mentally retarded person commits murder, and doesn't understand why it is wrong? It is the same between God and humans. I'm just trying to point out a certain truth that I believe in.

Then why did God create the mentally retarded person. One could go so far as to blame God for their actions.


QUOTE
http://www.net-burst.net/hot/index.htm

I don't know how to explain it any more than this site does. Go to number 10 under the heading "Contents".

I suppose its just my own view that causing pain on others is never the best solution and I believe god wouldnt resort to it. Therefore I would never believe in a painful hell.

EDIT: After reading that site, I found it strange that it did not answer the most basic of criticisms for God eg. Why did God create disease.

This post has been edited by steiner: Oct 15 2006, 09:01 AM


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post Oct 15 2006, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 04:45 AM) *

If a new born baby dies of disease is that his punishment for all the wrongs he has committed?

Death is not necessarily punishment. It can be looked at as going to Heaven earlier.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 04:45 AM) *

It also seems to me that the Christian God uses miracles arbritrarily, eg healing some and letting others die. In one story, Jesus heals a paralysed man. But I find it strange how God was the one who made him paralysed in the first place.

Here are a few verses that answer your question, from John 9.

1As [Jesus] went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

This man was blind so that Jesus could heal him, showing people that He truly is the Son of God. I believe that God would compensate him for dealing with blindness all of his life until that point.

And why is there disease? I don't know exactly. In Genesis, people lived ten times as long as we do today, but their average length of life kept on getting smaller and smaller. I think it was because the people sinned, and it was punishment. Eventually, Noah had to build the arc so that human life might be preserved when the earth was flooded.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Oct 15 2006, 02:59 PM


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post Oct 15 2006, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 04:45 AM) *

Then why did God create the mentally retarded person. One could go so far as to blame God for their actions.

Maybe for the same reason as above. So that miracles may be portrayed through them. But that doesn't mean that they cannot sin like everybody else.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Oct 15 2006, 01:12 PM


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post Oct 15 2006, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE
This doesn't prove anything. Just because you think differently from other people doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong.


This doesnt prove anything. I'm pretty sure that none of us here are able to PROVE if there is a heaven and hell, god or no god ! it was just his opinion.
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I like to think there may be a heaven and hell. I'm not gonna spend hours worrying about whats beyond life thou because i wont know till that time comes. then if there is a heaven GREAT. and if there is no heaven, i wont know anything as i will be dead. either way is just fine.


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post Oct 15 2006, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE(Shameless @ Oct 15 2006, 10:52 AM) *

QUOTE
This doesn't prove anything. Just because you think differently from other people doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong.


This doesnt prove anything. I'm pretty sure that none of us here are able to PROVE if there is a heaven and hell, god or no god ! it was just his opinion.
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I like to think there may be a heaven and hell. I'm not gonna spend hours worrying about whats beyond life thou because i wont know till that time comes. then if there is a heaven GREAT. and if there is no heaven, i wont know anything as i will be dead. either way is just fine.

You're right. None of us KNOW that there is a Heaven and hell, but that can't stop us from believing. And by the way, most Christians don't spend hours "worrying" about it, if that's what you meant by your statement.


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post Oct 15 2006, 04:05 PM
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hmmm.. maybe 'pondering' would have been a better choice of word. and i dont mean christians, i just mean people in general.


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post Oct 15 2006, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE
Death is not necessarily punishment. It can be looked at as going to Heaven earlier.

A good point. But what about excruciatingly painful deaths. Is there any need for the baby that dies to feel terrible pain due to a particularly horrible disease?

QUOTE
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

I dont quite follow what Jesus means when he says that. What is his reason why this man suffered paralysis?

QUOTE
Maybe for the same reason as above. So that miracles may be portrayed through them. But that doesn't mean that they cannot sin like everybody else.

But the vast majority of mentally handi-capped people do not have miracles portrayed through them.

Also, loads of mentally-handicapped people are handicapped at birth - before they sin.


Another reason why I dont believe in an all loving, all knowing all powerful God is due to evolution. Personally, I am convinced by the theory of evolution and think that this disproves the existence of such a God. I understand that many people believe that evolution is a mechanism for creation. However, in evolution, the weak die, the strong survive. Often, the most ruthless animals survive and are succesful in reproduction. To me that does not seem like a mechanism an all loving, all knowing ,all powerful God.


I understand that religious people find it hard to explain why the world is as it is and that there could be explanations for why things are as they are. But personally, I cannot understand why so many things in the world happen. I have too many unanswered questions and so I dont believe in God.

In the end its all down to faith, and I feel no reason to have any.

This post has been edited by steiner: Oct 15 2006, 04:50 PM


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