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> Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell ?
Enayra
post Oct 15 2006, 05:01 PM
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I'll be honest, I don't really know what to think about Heaven and Hell.

I guess there is someplace that we go after we died... But I dunno. This is a really hard thing since the only person that we suppose did died and then lived again, was Jesus, and he told everyone about heaven and everything. But can we really trust the Bible?...

Maybe after death there is nothing at all. Boom nothing. That's really scary... I don't know what to think. I guess we'll know the answer when we'll die...


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steiner
post Oct 15 2006, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE(Enayra @ Oct 15 2006, 06:01 PM) *

I guess we'll know the answer when we'll die...

Unless if there is no heaven or hell, but instead, just nothing. In which case, we wont be able to know anything. Pretty scary.


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post Oct 15 2006, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 12:48 PM) *

QUOTE
Death is not necessarily punishment. It can be looked at as going to Heaven earlier.

A good point. But what about excruciatingly painful deaths. Is there any need for the baby that dies to feel terrible pain due to a particularly horrible disease?

There is not necessarily a reason for the excruciating pain, but maybe God believes it is only fair to others that the child feels this pain because the child is being allowed to see Heaven before most other people do.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 12:48 PM) *

QUOTE
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

I dont quite follow what Jesus means when he says that. What is his reason why this man suffered paralysis?

Jesus wanted to show other people that He truly was the Son of God. Having the power to make the blind see can be very convincing. The man was blind from birth so that people could be amazed when Jesus healed him, and then hopefully the people would believe in Christ and follow His teachings. This is God's logic. (And yes, there might have been a person that Jesus healed who was suffering from paralysis, but that is somewhere else in the Bible.)

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 12:48 PM) *

QUOTE
Maybe for the same reason as above. So that miracles may be portrayed through them. But that doesn't mean that they cannot sin like everybody else.

But the vast majority of mentally handi-capped people do not have miracles portrayed through them.

Also, loads of mentally-handicapped people are handicapped at birth - before they sin.

The first part is true, but that does not mean that God will automatically perform miracles through a mentally handicapped person. This is a possible explanation: God does not perform miracles through all mentally handicapped people because if He did, it would not be seen as amazing when a rare feat is performed through the person. Since it is rare, people will be more likely to consider it a miracle from God.

And for your second point, I think that you may have misinterpreted what I said. I was just saying that mentally handicapped people have the ability to sin, not that their sin causes the handicap. This is shown through the Bible verses that I quoted.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Oct 15 2006, 06:35 PM


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post Oct 15 2006, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 12:48 PM) *

Another reason why I dont believe in an all loving, all knowing all powerful God is due to evolution. Personally, I am convinced by the theory of evolution and think that this disproves the existence of such a God. I understand that many people believe that evolution is a mechanism for creation. However, in evolution, the weak die, the strong survive. Often, the most ruthless animals survive and are succesful in reproduction. To me that does not seem like a mechanism an all loving, all knowing ,all powerful God.


I understand that religious people find it hard to explain why the world is as it is and that there could be explanations for why things are as they are. But personally, I cannot understand why so many things in the world happen. I have too many unanswered questions and so I dont believe in God.

In the end its all down to faith, and I feel no reason to have any.

Personally, I neither accept nor reject evolution. If evolution truly does occur, it does not disprove Christianity. But if it does occur, maybe God implemented it because He knew that it would lead to the creation of the human species. Yes, in evolution the strong survive and the weak die out, but mankind's social contract and economic system has kind of made this irrelevent. For example, a human with sharp teeth has practically no advantage over a human with dull teeth. This might be diferent for animals. A human with blond hair has practically no advantage over a human with dark hair. Most humans do not try to blend in with their surroundings in order to obtain food, so physical traits are pretty much irrelevent. This is not true for animals.


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steiner
post Oct 15 2006, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE
There is not necessarily a reason for the excruciating pain, but maybe God believes it is only fair to others that the child feels this pain because the child is being allowed to see Heaven before most other people do.

But the child has done nothing wrong. Is it not unfair for someone to be punished for nothing. Just because some suffer, does not mean that others should suffer too.

Also, I thought the whole point of life on earth is to see which people are worthy of life in heaven. Doesnt killing a baby off with disease before they can live their lives fully, defeat the point of this. Theoretically, couldnt a 'evil' baby go to heaven.

QUOTE
The first part is true, but that does not mean that God will automatically perform miracles through a mentally handicapped person. This is a possible explanation: God does not perform miracles through all mentally handicapped people because if He did, it would not be seen as amazing when a rare feat is performed through the person. Since it is rare, people will be more likely to consider it a miracle from God.

So God creates lots of mentally handicapped people so that when he heals one of them it will convince more people to believe in him? Doesnt that seem a little unfair on the others. Couldnt he use a miracle such as the burning bush to convince people of God, instead of having loads of people mentally handicapped.

Also, I think healing many people would be just as effective or even more effective than healing a few. Certainly I would be convinced if I saw a prophet touching people and healing them repeatedly.


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post Oct 15 2006, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 02:55 PM) *

QUOTE
There is not necessarily a reason for the excruciating pain, but maybe God believes it is only fair to others that the child feels this pain because the child is being allowed to see Heaven before most other people do.

But the child has done nothing wrong. Is it not unfair for someone to be punished for nothing. Just because some suffer, does not mean that others should suffer too.

Also, I thought the whole point of life on earth is to see which people are worthy of life in heaven. Doesnt killing a baby off with disease before they can live their lives fully, defeat the point of this. Theoretically, couldnt a 'evil' baby go to heaven.

Well, certain things like an early death do happen, and I trust that God will deal with their souls gracefully. But I will not be able to explain everything. I am not as smart as God.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 02:55 PM) *

QUOTE
The first part is true, but that does not mean that God will automatically perform miracles through a mentally handicapped person. This is a possible explanation: God does not perform miracles through all mentally handicapped people because if He did, it would not be seen as amazing when a rare feat is performed through the person. Since it is rare, people will be more likely to consider it a miracle from God.

So God creates lots of mentally handicapped people so that when he heals one of them it will convince more people to believe in him? Doesnt that seem a little unfair on the others. Couldnt he use a miracle such as the burning bush to convince people of God, instead of having loads of people mentally handicapped.

Also, I think healing many people would be just as effective or even more effective than healing a few. Certainly I would be convinced if I saw a prophet touching people and healing them repeatedly.

Well, God does not want to make getting into Heaven too easy. Faith is not faith if there is proof. Sometimes He chooses to perform miracles, sometimes He does not. But if you really want your questions answered, just ask Him. I can't guarantee that your understanding will become perfect, but it will improve.

Also, yes, if God heals one handicapped person and doesn't heal all the rest, it may seem unfair, but if you look at it from my point of view, there is always the chance that God rewards them in Heaven.


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Fox
post Oct 15 2006, 08:07 PM
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TBH I can't be bothered to read SO MUCH TEXT, but I can say this about Steiner and FFMaster's big fight: To some people suffering is seen as PROOF that God is all-loving.

To deny the possibility of evil and suffering would deny free will. Personally, I like free will. To allow us to grow and act on our own for the most part is good. And if we choose to be evil, or choose not to provide enough help to those who need it, then thats our choice.

And as for the baby thing: If it dies before it has a chance to live life, I think God would either (i) put its soul in another body to live life or (ii) let it into heaven no questions asked. Otherwise he's a bastard and although I don;t think any God IS all loving, I don;t think He's a bastard.


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steiner
post Oct 15 2006, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Oct 15 2006, 09:07 PM) *

TBH I can't be bothered to read SO MUCH TEXT, but I can say this about Steiner and FFMaster's big fight: To some people suffering is seen as PROOF that God is all-loving.

To deny the possibility of evil and suffering would deny free will. Personally, I like free will. To allow us to grow and act on our own for the most part is good. And if we choose to be evil, or choose not to provide enough help to those who need it, then thats our choice.

And as for the baby thing: If it dies before it has a chance to live life, I think God would either (i) put its soul in another body to live life or (ii) let it into heaven no questions asked. Otherwise he's a bastard and although I don;t think any God IS all loving, I don;t think He's a bastard.

lol. Its not a fight. We are just debating like we're supposed to in the debate corner.

But my argument was that I cant understand why God created disease. Or why there are natural disasters eg. tsunamis. To me, it doesnt make sense as Ive explained before.

Also, I dont understand why God doesnt defend those who suffer. That would not conrtadict free-will. eg. If humans can defend others from torture, why cant God?

Anyway, Ive explained this all before, so I cant be bothered to repeat myslef.


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post Oct 16 2006, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 15 2006, 05:32 PM) *

lol. Its not a fight. We are just debating like we're supposed to in the debate corner.

Yes, quite agreed that it is not a fight.

I don't know why exactly there is disease. But just because humans cannot explain everything doesn't mean that what they claim cannot be true. For example, how was the first matter created? Can anyone explain this? Just because no one can does not imply that there is no such matter in existence. I claim that there is an all-loving God despite the existence of disease, and I also claim that matter exists despite the fact that I cannot explain how the first matter came to exist. But if we ask, He might choose to reveal the answers to us.

And there's something that I want to point out. Just because you do not believe in an all-loving god does not mean that you cannot believe in any god at all. You explain why you do not believe in an all-loving god, but you do not explain why you don't believe in any god at all.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Oct 16 2006, 01:41 AM


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Fox
post Oct 16 2006, 09:12 AM
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Fair enough guys! Sorry it was just a lot of debating I missed. I unerstand the point about disease, but do you not think that disease and natural disasters are, in a sense, a good thing? Obviously they're not, but from the point of view that these things bring out the best in people and band everyone together they are positive.

Maybe its a bit of a weak argument, yeah. Wish I could remember some more of the "theodices" I learned last year. One or two of those were really good.


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steiner
post Oct 18 2006, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE
I don't know why exactly there is disease. But just because humans cannot explain everything doesn't mean that what they claim cannot be true. For example, how was the first matter created? Can anyone explain this? Just because no one can does not imply that there is no such matter in existence. I claim that there is an all-loving God despite the existence of disease, and I also claim that matter exists despite the fact that I cannot explain how the first matter came to exist. But if we ask, He might choose to reveal the answers to us.

And there's something that I want to point out. Just because you do not believe in an all-loving god does not mean that you cannot believe in any god at all. You explain why you do not believe in an all-loving god, but you do not explain why you don't believe in any god at all.

Good point. It is true that we cannot explain how matter existed yet and I agree that it is possible that there will be an explanation for disease in the future.

The main reason I believe that there is matter but not a God is down to evidence. There is physical evidence for matter, but none for God. The reason I do not believe in a God is because I see no reason too. To me, adding a God into the explanation of the universe is just complicating the situation needlesly. My view of the world is scientific, and I can only believe in a God if I feel there is reliable evidence supporting its existence.

In the end, belief in God is something science can never disprove. But I believe it is up to the religious people to prove the existence of God. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of a tooth fairy, should not give someone a reason to believe in one.

QUOTE

Fair enough guys! Sorry it was just a lot of debating I missed. I unerstand the point about disease, but do you not think that disease and natural disasters are, in a sense, a good thing? Obviously they're not, but from the point of view that these things bring out the best in people and band everyone together they are positive.

Maybe its a bit of a weak argument, yeah. Wish I could remember some more of the "theodices" I learned last year. One or two of those were really good.


I agree. That is a weak argument.

This post has been edited by steiner: Oct 18 2006, 06:28 PM


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post Oct 18 2006, 09:36 PM
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Ok I have not really been following this so I'll try to jump in.

Steiner, above you said that "loads of mentally-handicapped people are handicapped at birth - before they sin." This is not true, since all people are born as sinners. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5. It is hard to know the basic teachings of Christianity without going to church, that I can understand.

Disease and natural disasters are not "good" or "bad" they just ARE.

No one is here to convince anyone else to join their religion. This is just a forum to state beliefs. You either have faith or you don't.


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Fox
post Oct 19 2006, 09:02 AM
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I've always hated that idea "all people born are sinners". I underatand the idea of original sin, I just think its really unfair! It's like starting life already in debt, before you've had a chance to screw up your finances.

Things like that are a big reason I don't conform to christianity.


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post Oct 25 2006, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE(Fox @ Oct 16 2006, 05:12 AM) *

Fair enough guys! Sorry it was just a lot of debating I missed. I unerstand the point about disease, but do you not think that disease and natural disasters are, in a sense, a good thing? Obviously they're not, but from the point of view that these things bring out the best in people and band everyone together they are positive.

Maybe its a bit of a weak argument, yeah. Wish I could remember some more of the "theodices" I learned last year. One or two of those were really good.

Actually, I don't believe that this is a weak arguement at all! But that's just an opinion.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 18 2006, 12:18 PM) *

The main reason I believe that there is matter but not a God is down to evidence. There is physical evidence for matter, but none for God. The reason I do not believe in a God is because I see no reason too. To me, adding a God into the explanation of the universe is just complicating the situation needlesly. My view of the world is scientific, and I can only believe in a God if I feel there is reliable evidence supporting its existence.

In the end, belief in God is something science can never disprove. But I believe it is up to the religious people to prove the existence of God. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of a tooth fairy, should not give someone a reason to believe in one.

To me, leaving God out of the picture is quite absurd. This is my arguement: If there is no God, then how are we here? Things don't magically appear, such as planets, so if God didn't create them, who did? Who created matter? And the possibility of human life also seems absurd with God. Humans seem too complex to me not to be created by God.


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steiner
post Oct 26 2006, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE
To me, leaving God out of the picture is quite absurd. This is my arguement: If there is no God, then how are we here? Things don't magically appear, such as planets, so if God didn't create them, who did? Who created matter? And the possibility of human life also seems absurd with God. Humans seem too complex to me not to be created by God.

My argument is the God of the gaps argument. Just because Science cannot explain everything yet, is not a reason for believing in God. One could claim that a God is simply 'created' to solve problems that Science has yet to solve. Eg 'Why is there rain?' -God did it. In a way, God has been reduced to a much smaller unknown. More things can be increasingly explained by Science, leaving little room for God.

Also, to me, life is extremely likely. It has has been proved by evolution how complex organisms such as us could have been evolved from bacteria over billions of years. Also, there are billions of planets and possibly lots of universes. The chance of there being no life, to me, seems incredibly unlikely.

In regards to the creation of matter. Although it may seem impossible for something to appear out of nothing to us at the moment does not mean that it is impossible. There are many mathematical and scientific principles which seem impossible but are actually true. To me there is no reason for me to believe in a God. Especially not an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God.

About original sin. To me it seems unfair that people can be blamed for stuff they havnt done. I wouldnt like a God who said that I had sinned before I had done anything.


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post Oct 28 2006, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 26 2006, 12:41 PM) *

QUOTE
To me, leaving God out of the picture is quite absurd. This is my arguement: If there is no God, then how are we here? Things don't magically appear, such as planets, so if God didn't create them, who did? Who created matter? And the possibility of human life also seems absurd with God. Humans seem too complex to me not to be created by God.

My argument is the God of the gaps argument. Just because Science cannot explain everything yet, is not a reason for believing in God. One could claim that a God is simply 'created' to solve problems that Science has yet to solve. Eg 'Why is there rain?' -God did it. In a way, God has been reduced to a much smaller unknown. More things can be increasingly explained by Science, leaving little room for God.

Science can be thought of as discovering how the world around us operates. Or rather, how God decided to make things operate. This is my philosophy. Yes, God does make rain possible, but this is not proved false because humans have discovered how it happens. Years ago people may have thought that it was some kind of divine "magic", and that it just falls from the sky, but we now know how it truly happens. Water does not simply fall from the sky. The water cycle...you know the details.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 26 2006, 12:41 PM) *

Also, to me, life is extremely likely. It has has been proved by evolution how complex organisms such as us could have been evolved from bacteria over billions of years. Also, there are billions of planets and possibly lots of universes. The chance of there being no life, to me, seems incredibly unlikely.

I wasn't detailed enough when I mentined human life. I was talking about human emotions, such as love and hate. Humans are very intellectually complex, and it seems unlikely to me that it could occur without God.

QUOTE(steiner @ Oct 26 2006, 12:41 PM) *

Although it may seem impossible for something to appear out of nothing to us at the moment does not mean that it is impossible. There are many mathematical and scientific principles which seem impossible but are actually true.

http://godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Check it out. You might find it interesting.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Jun 29 2007, 11:33 AM


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post Oct 29 2006, 12:15 PM
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I agree with FFMaster that human life is one of the most compelling arguments for God. I know science can claim to know how we evolved, and it can claim to understand the workings of emotions, but I don;t understand how science can explain our awareness.

Am I really able to think, feel, and imagine through electrical signals and different chemical balances? Maybe so, but then how do I KNOW that I'm thinking and feeling? Chemicals and electrical signals don't KNOW things. In fact, right now the most SCIENTIFIC explanation I can come up with is that there must be such a thnig as a soul.


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post Oct 29 2006, 09:38 PM
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Well said, Fox. This is precisely what I was talking about^^^^


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post Oct 30 2006, 02:35 AM
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My idea of Heaven..

There's this book written by a famous psychic (I think her name is Sylvia Browne, I could be WAY off) and the title is something like Contacting Your Spirit Guide..Spirit guides are like..guardian angels in a sense but they're with you all the time and they help plan out your life with a "chart" of some sort.

Theres a description of what spirit guides do in their "spare" time..it's like..time doesn't exist there and her spirit guide (the authors) told her that he once sat down and listened to a lecture by Abraham Lincoln about how Bush is throwing the US in the toilet.

So I think Heaven is like..seeing everyone that has ever existed and you can meet them and talk to them and like..just..be happy..rolling green hills and constant sunshine..just like..your picture of luxury. I also believe in seeing past pets; that is the one thing I do look forward to.

However, sometimes I also wonder like..this is it? This is our only chance to ever exist? One life, and yet it seems so short when we're about to die..You think, God, I wish I did that..and you're scared to die because nobody knows what is on the other side..So I think I may believe in reincarnation.

I believe in God too. Just..I don't know where to place him when it comes to Heaven. For some reason at this moment I can just see him as a person and he walks around and talks to people in Heaven. In Heaven, he will be the most enrapturing individual you will have ever spoken to and he will eventually speak to everyone..I don't know.

It's a mixed thing for me I guess.


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QUOTE(Nick @ May 5 2007, 04:05 PM) *
go Roger yourself with a Tuba you flappy-headed Canuck - your humour is hideous and your gayness knows no bounds!
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Resurrection
post Oct 31 2006, 01:34 AM
Post #40



Love...the most powerful force on Earth
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Interesting. So, do you believe this psychic?


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Make the 99 become 100
LIES PROTRUDE FROM THE MOUTH OF MAN, BUT EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD IS LIFE.
I AM A LIAR
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