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> When will Jesus come back ??, for Christians
N2Y
post Dec 5 2006, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE(FFmaster08 @ Dec 4 2006, 09:29 PM) *

What do you mean by "wasn't born"? And didn't he die later than 0 AD? Somewhere between 30-35 AD?

And we listen to the Bible written decades later because we believe it is the Word of God. We believe that Jesus is God. Therefore we believe that this is what Jesus is telling us.

I mean that Jesus was born decades before the year 0, in contrast with what the New Testament wants you to believe. It was written in the year 0, yes. But it was written after Jesus died. Years after he died. The Christians had to travel from Israel to Rome, where the year 0 was stated as the beginning of the Calendar.

And that Word of God thing? Remember, it was written by men. Men talk to men, pass the story, and another one writes it. You ever played that game where you told person A "I like tomatoes!" and he tells it to person B, who tells it to person C, etc... until person Z finally gets to say what he heard "I died from potatoes!"

When stories are passed over, they change. Simple as that. The Bible was written much later, so the story we heard changed. The essence was still there, but the story around it changed.

QUOTE
I would be interested to see where you found that info on nuclear bombs and that stuff.

You can believe what you want, but fact is that a nuclear war is very close and humanity is in danger if we dont do something about that and the climate.

What a book tells you doesnt change that.

According to other religions, the world is set in 4 era's. We're in the 4th and last era. After a huge war, the world as we know it ends...

I'm showing that all religions say something differently. It would be foolish to do whatever we want because the Bible tells us that we'll survive until we built the Temple of Solomon. That's the biggest lie you can live in.

If Jesus would live at this day, he would surely rebel against these people. People who want to ignore the danger because someone else has told them that something else needs to happen before they are actually in danger.

To come back to the Temple of Solomon though, let's look at it symbolically. What if the Temple of Solomon was a word to describe the weapons we made just now. Nuclear weapons. What if the world ends when we do that. Ever thought of that?!

If God ever said this would happen, and passed it over to men, who passed it over to others, who wrote it, they would need a word to describe the great danger. The Temple of Solomon. They meant something they didnt know about yet.
Again, to show you how we can take thing seriously, thus ignoring the essence of the Word, or how we can try to capture the essence and accept that we're doing wrong here.


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Kalantzi5
post Dec 5 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 5 2006, 11:01 PM) *

And that Word of God thing? Remember, it was written by men. Men talk to men, pass the story, and another one writes it. You ever played that game where you told person A "I like tomatoes!" and he tells it to person B, who tells it to person C, etc... until person Z finally gets to say what he heard "I died from potatoes!"


Not so, the new testament books were almost all written by people that lived during the time. The four gospels were written by different disciples, acts was written by Luke who was a disciple, most of the letters were written by Paul, some were by John the disciple, James was also a disciple, and revelations was written by John. The only one with an unknown author is the book of Hebrews. So please do your research before you make claims like that.
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BlackMage
post Dec 5 2006, 11:19 PM
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When Will Jesus Come Back? catholic here btw, Who knows really. I mean some people say it should be now. That our world isn't doing to well and that we need him but think, imo it could be alot worse, yea terrorism is at its height, hunger and poverty is still raging, and the U.S. has made no significant progress in the middle east other than the capture of Saddam, its kind of at a stand still in the world right now imo, it seems to me like something really good or really bad could happen any moment but I don't find myself thinking "wheres jesus!?!" he will come when he comes.

This post has been edited by BlackMage: Dec 5 2006, 11:20 PM


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Resurrection
post Dec 6 2006, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 5 2006, 06:01 PM) *

I mean that Jesus was born decades before the year 0, in contrast with what the New Testament wants you to believe. It was written in the year 0, yes. But it was written after Jesus died. Years after he died. The Christians had to travel from Israel to Rome, where the year 0 was stated as the beginning of the Calendar.

And that Word of God thing? Remember, it was written by men. Men talk to men, pass the story, and another one writes it. You ever played that game where you told person A "I like tomatoes!" and he tells it to person B, who tells it to person C, etc... until person Z finally gets to say what he heard "I died from potatoes!"

When stories are passed over, they change. Simple as that. The Bible was written much later, so the story we heard changed. The essence was still there, but the story around it changed.

In my Bible, there's a timeline and it says that the birth of Christ was dated around 6 BC, somehow. So I have no idea what you are talking about or from what source you got it.

And about the Bible being the Word of God, men obviously wrote the Bible, but that doesn't mean that they were not divinely influenced when they wrote it. Why couldn't God have just put his thoughts into what they wrote? I believe that He did this, therefore I beilieve that it is the Word of God.


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Fox
post Dec 6 2006, 10:20 AM
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How will we know if Jesus comes back? Do you have any idea how many people have claimed to be the son of God? OK, we havnt crucified any of the modern ones, but we always assume that they're crazy. Maybe one of them was telling the truth, there is no way to know.


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N2Y
post Dec 6 2006, 10:34 AM
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That means Im the only Christian here who rather wants to use the sense we have now in the 21st Century, instead of basing my world and belief on a book that was written by men who claim it is God's Word.

QUOTE
And about the Bible being the Word of God, men obviously wrote the Bible, but that doesn't mean that they were not divinely influenced when they wrote it. Why couldn't God have just put his thoughts into what they wrote? I believe that He did this, therefore I beilieve that it is the Word of God.

Then you have think this; If you, at this point, want to write the new Word of God, since God must have very different ideas about the world now than he did then, do you believe God with divinely influence you? Try to use your heart and mind when answering this question.

Look at the facts, please.

Lets compare the Jewish Testaments, the Christian Testaments and the Islam Testaments. You'll notice they will all claim that God has spoken to the people who wrote it or lived at that time (though Islam still claims that the Koran came from heaven)

So God or Allah or whatever you want to call him, had to tell his Word to three different religions, right? And he did that at different times...

Why would he not talk now? Is he happy the way we live now? I think not. We screw up the planet day by day.
Is he disappointed? Did he lost hope? If that were true, Jesus would be sent to Earth immediatly, not?


QUOTE
Not so, the new testament books were almost all written by people that lived during the time. The four gospels were written by different disciples, acts was written by Luke who was a disciple, most of the letters were written by Paul, some were by John the disciple, James was also a disciple, and revelations was written by John. The only one with an unknown author is the book of Hebrews. So please do your research before you make claims like that.

Wikipedia shows how vague that source is. We are told that its a fact, but no researcher can be 100% certain.

QUOTE
The New Testament is a collection of works, and as such was written by multiple authors. The traditional view is that all the books were written by Apostles or disciples working under their direction (e.g. Mark and Luke). For example, Papius wrote about AD 140, "This also the presbyter said: Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately, though not in order, whatsoever he remembered of the things said or done by Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but afterward, as I said, he followed Peter, who adapted his teaching to the needs of his hearers, but with no intention of giving a connected account of the Lord's discourses, so that Mark committed no error while he thus wrote some things as he remembered them. For he was careful of one thing, not to omit any of the thing which he had heard, and not to state any of them falsely" (cited by Eusebius, Hist. eccl., 3.39.21ff.). Irenaeus wrote about AD 180, "Luke, the attendant of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel which Paul had declared. Afterwards John, the disciple of the Lord, who also reclined on his bosom, published his Gospel, while staying at Ephesus in Asia" (cited by Eusebius, Hist. eccl., 5.8.3ff.).

Seven of the epistles of Paul are now generally accepted by most modern scholars as authentic—these undisputed letters include Romans, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, First Thessalonians, and Philemon. Raymond Brown has this to say about Colossians: "At the present moment about 60 percent of critical scholarship holds that Paul did not write the letter" (An Introduction, p. 610; cited by earlychristianwritings.com). Experts generally reject Pauline authorship for any other epistle, although there are a few conservative Christian scholars who accept the traditional ascriptions. Almost no current mainstream scholars, however, Christian or otherwise, hold that Paul wrote Hebrews. In fact, questions about the authorship of Hebrews go back at least to the 3rd-century ecclesiastical writer Caius, who attributed only thirteen epistles to Paul (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., 6.20.3ff.). A small minority of scholars hypothesize Hebrews may have been written by one of Paul's close associates, such as Barnabas, Silas, or Luke, given that the themes therein are largely Pauline.

The authorship of the non-Pauline books remains disputed, with most secular scholars rejecting traditional ascriptions, and many, perhaps most Christian scholars accepting them.[citation needed]

To summarize, the only books for which there are solid consensuses are the seven Pauline epistiles mentioned above, which are universally regarded as authentic, and the book of Hebrews, which is conversely regarded as anonymous.

Of key concern is the role of presuppositions in Biblical scholarship, especially gospel and Historical Jesus studies. It is now widely recognized that every individual comes to historical study with his or her own experiences, religious beliefs, and philosophical assumptions, and that these factors can play a defining role in the final product that any particular scholar produces. In the case of the gospels, modern research has been approached from a number of perspectives: Jewish, feminist, Protestant, Roman Catholic, agnostic, materialist, historical, and social-scientific, to name just a few. A prime example of this diversity of opinion is represented in the numerous and often contradictory "historical Jesus" books published in the past 25 years (compare, for example, the work of the Jesus Seminar, B. Mack, John Dominic Crossan with that of John P. Meier, James Dunn, and N. T. Wright). This has often had the effect of creating reconstructions of Jesus in the images of the particular authors, as opposed to narrating who Jesus really was, what he did, and what he taught. Nevertheless, most scholars are of the opinion that this process of often heated debate has produced viable results.

The problems with correctly assigning authorship to ancient works like those in the New Testament can be demonstrated by looking at its four gospels.

Because of the many similarities between Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they are often referred to as the Synoptic Gospels ("seeing-together"). The Gospel of John, in contrast, contains much unique narrative and dialogue and is considered to be different in its emphasis from the other three gospels. The question of how the similarities between the synoptic gospels arose is known as the synoptic problem. How material from each gospel was introduced to other gospels brings up significant problems in assigning authorship. Was each written by one individual, the four simply relaying in their own words the events of Jesus' life they themselves witnessed? Was there a first author and gospel whose work substantially contributed to the later gospels? Was each gospel written over a relatively short or long period of time? Was each gospel written by only one person?

The dominant view among critical scholars, the Two-Source Hypothesis, is that both Matthew and Luke drew significantly upon the Gospel of Mark and another common source, known as the "Q Source", from Quelle, the German word for "source". The nature and even existence of Q is speculative. Most Q scholars believe that it was a single written document, while a few contest that "Q" was actually a number of documents or oral traditions. No information about its author, if it existed, can be obtained from the resources currently available and, indeed, little or any direct biographical information about their authors is assumed to be traceable.

Modern scholars are also skeptical about authorship claims for noncanonical books, such as the Nag Hammadi corpus discovered in Egypt in 1945. This corpus of fifty-two Coptic books, dated to about 350–400, includes gospels in the names of Thomas, Philip, James, John, and many others. Like almost all ancient works, they represent copies rather than original texts. None of the original texts has been discovered, and scholars argue about the dating of the originals. Suggested dates vary from as early as 50 to as late as the late second century. (See Gospel of Thomas and New Testament Apocrypha.)


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Resurrection
post Dec 6 2006, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 6 2006, 05:34 AM) *

Then you have think this; If you, at this point, want to write the new Word of God, since God must have very different ideas about the world now than he did then, do you believe God with divinely influence you? Try to use your heart and mind when answering this question.

I doubt Paul and the other New Testament authors were aware that they were writing what would later be considered the Word of God. I doubt they knew that they were being divinely influenced. Therefore, they were not trying to write the "new Word of God".

QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 6 2006, 05:34 AM) *

Why would he not talk now? Is he happy the way we live now? I think not. We screw up the planet day by day.
Is he disappointed? Did he lost hope? If that were true, Jesus would be sent to Earth immediatly, not?

edit

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Jun 28 2007, 04:10 PM


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Mobius
post Dec 6 2006, 11:08 PM
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This is one of those topics that can simply go around in circles for a long long time, because so much of the subject matter is hypothetical, with no real proof of anything. I always avoid conversations like this in rl, but I throw my two cents in here.

First, I am agnostic and regard the christian religion with some reservation. The christian bible is a book, and an incomplete book at that. It was ordered by King James as a birthday present for his son, and was put together by a group of scholars and priests at the Council of Trent. Out of over 300 plus books and scrolls, they chose 66 to represent what would be the bible. So the bible wasn't composed by god, but by men. Admittedly, the bible does present a good overview for the christian theology, and does teach sound moral and ethical standards. However, it doesn't paint an accurate overall picture. Read the other 234 texts that were left out, and decide for yourself. But, I digress.

Second, I believe that Jesus was real, and that he was a son of god, but not the son of god. So much of Jesus' life is left out of the bible, and he was much more than mere a "fisher of men". He was heavily involved in politics during a time that Israel was under Roman occuapation, and there were many factions of jews and gentiles alike that simply couldn't meet and/or communicate openly; thus the use of parables. To us, thousands of years later, they teach a moral. Back then, they were also a means of delivering information.
By now some of you are probably thinking I'm totally off my rocker. Again, I digress. Find a book called Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scroll. It's basically a direct translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it sheds some surprising light on many topics and events that are mentioned in the bible. Again, decide for yourself. Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, and I respect that. I just wanted to share my POV.


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Resurrection
post Dec 6 2006, 11:18 PM
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I don't understand why many people do not see that just because the Bible was put together by men does not mean that it cannot be the Word of God. And I'm pretty sure the Bible was put together long before the Council of Trent. Wasn't that in the 1500s?


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Mobius
post Dec 6 2006, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE(FFmaster08 @ Dec 6 2006, 03:18 PM) *

I don't understand why many people do not see that just because the Bible was put together by men does not mean that it cannot be the Word of God. And I'm pretty sure the Bible was put together long before the Council of Trent. Wasn't that in the 1500s?


Granted, the bible can be the Word of God even though it was put together by men. However, because they chose only 66 books out of many, many more; they effectively decided which part of gods word everyone else gets to see. Basically, they didn't print it all. We're not seeing all of god's word. What's to say that small portion we are seeing isn't misleading in some way? And I'm not trying to be critical.
Actually, no. The Council of Trent is were the bible was put together. It conviened in 1611, which is where the King James Bible came from. The only bible predating that is the Greekus Textus, which is a publication of lesser degree i.e. not containing all the books that the modern day bible contains. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Greekus Textus version is very limited, and really don't know anything more about it than that.


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post Dec 6 2006, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE(Mobius @ Dec 6 2006, 06:38 PM) *

Granted, the bible can be the Word of God even though it was put together by men. However, because they chose only 66 books out of many, many more; they effectively decided which part of gods word everyone else gets to see. Basically, they didn't print it all. We're not seeing all of god's word. What's to say that small portion we are seeing isn't misleading in some way? And I'm not trying to be critical.

This doesn't mean that God could not have divinely influenced men to decide which puts to put into the Bible, though. And not every Christian text was necessarily the Word of God. God only divinely influenced some people. For example, there are many differences among Chrsitians today, and not everyone agrees.

QUOTE(Mobius @ Dec 6 2006, 06:38 PM) *

Actually, no. The Council of Trent is were the bible was put together. It conviened in 1611, which is where the King James Bible came from. The only bible predating that is the Greekus Textus, which is a publication of lesser degree i.e. not containing all the books that the modern day bible contains. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Greekus Textus version is very limited, and really don't know anything more about it than that.

What Council of Trent are you talking about?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm


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Kalantzi5
post Dec 7 2006, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE(Mobius @ Dec 6 2006, 06:38 PM) *

Granted, the bible can be the Word of God even though it was put together by men. However, because they chose only 66 books out of many, many more; they effectively decided which part of gods word everyone else gets to see. Basically, they didn't print it all. We're not seeing all of god's word. What's to say that small portion we are seeing isn't misleading in some way? And I'm not trying to be critical.


The other books of the Bible were written around 300 AD, after all the other ones that are in the Bible (I am asumming you are refering to the Gospel of Thomas and Mary and so on). Also, there are some books in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant one that are historical books only.

QUOTE(Mobius @ Dec 6 2006, 06:38 PM) *

Actually, no. The Council of Trent is were the bible was put together. It conviened in 1611, which is where the King James Bible came from. The only bible predating that is the Greekus Textus, which is a publication of lesser degree i.e. not containing all the books that the modern day bible contains. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Greekus Textus version is very limited, and really don't know anything more about it than that.


There were many translations of the Bible in many languages before the Coucil of Trent. Originally in Hebrew and Greek, then Latin, then in several vernaculars (German, English, Italian to name a few) around the Renesance. All of these before the 1600s. There was much more than only the Greekus Textus version in the 1600s. Look up the Coucil of Nicea (sp) around 350 AD. That is closer to when the Bible was put together.

@new2ya

Since when is wikipedia a reliable source. I can go and say that there are 3245 books in the Bible and that FFXII was made by George Bush if I wanted to and it would be up for a while. Don't always believe wikipedia completely. Look things up at more reliable places too.
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N2Y
post Dec 7 2006, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE
Since when is wikipedia a reliable source. I can go and say that there are 3245 books in the Bible and that FFXII was made by George Bush if I wanted to and it would be up for a while. Don't always believe wikipedia completely. Look things up at more reliable places too.

Ever since we all use WikiPedia as a reliable source. Read other threads.

QUOTE
This doesn't mean that God could not have divinely influenced men to decide which puts to put into the Bible, though. And not every Christian text was necessarily the Word of God. God only divinely influenced some people. For example, there are many differences among Christians today, and not everyone agrees.

Who told you that? Where did you get that from? This shows how much we all guess. We can't just hold on to the Bible and take everything literally was is written there.

For one, the text was written in a different time where words had different or more meanings than the ones we use now.

As for more opinions inside the Christian religion, thats true. Cant add anything more than that.


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post Dec 7 2006, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 7 2006, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE
This doesn't mean that God could not have divinely influenced men to decide which puts to put into the Bible, though. And not every Christian text was necessarily the Word of God. God only divinely influenced some people. For example, there are many differences among Christians today, and not everyone agrees.

Who told you that? Where did you get that from?

Logic. Not everyone was preaching the same things after Christ died, some teachings were contradictory. Therefore not every person couold have been divinely influenced.


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N2Y
post Dec 8 2006, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE(FFmaster08 @ Dec 7 2006, 10:25 PM) *

QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 7 2006, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE
This doesn't mean that God could not have divinely influenced men to decide which puts to put into the Bible, though. And not every Christian text was necessarily the Word of God. God only divinely influenced some people. For example, there are many differences among Christians today, and not everyone agrees.

Who told you that? Where did you get that from?

Logic. Not everyone was preaching the same things after Christ died, some teachings were contradictory. Therefore not every person couold have been divinely influenced.

Who told you that only SOME people were divinely influenced, meaning, who told you that anyone was divinely influenced in the first place.

We cant be certain, we just think its logical. Yet even only inside our religion, many people have different opinions about a matter... different logics...


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post Dec 8 2006, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 8 2006, 10:45 AM) *

Who told you that only SOME people were divinely influenced, meaning, who told you that anyone was divinely influenced in the first place.

We cant be certain, we just think its logical. Yet even only inside our religion, many people have different opinions about a matter... different logics...

I guess many people tell me that the authors of the Bible were divinely influenced, but you are right--we cannot be sure. But it's nice having something that we can go by--something that we can count on--and this, I believe, is exactly what God has given us.


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N2Y
post Dec 8 2006, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE(FFmaster08 @ Dec 8 2006, 11:54 PM) *

QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 8 2006, 10:45 AM) *

Who told you that only SOME people were divinely influenced, meaning, who told you that anyone was divinely influenced in the first place.

We cant be certain, we just think its logical. Yet even only inside our religion, many people have different opinions about a matter... different logics...

I guess many people tell me that the authors of the Bible were divinely influenced, but you are right--we cannot be sure. But it's nice having something that we can go by--something that we can count on--and this, I believe, is exactly what God has given us.

I like that. That's why I respect Christians and other religious people who believe in things like this. These are nice ways to live by. But it shouldnt become an excuse to do wrong, which happened in the past when we tried to spread our faith and made a lot of victims when doing so.

God has given us many things though. He gave us a brain so we could question and wonder. If he has given us that, we should use it to learn, question and discover things, not go by a book that tells us what God says and says not, ya know? That's my opinion, as a very... rare Christian. Lol...


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post Dec 9 2006, 02:26 PM
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Love...the most powerful force on Earth
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QUOTE(new2ya @ Dec 8 2006, 06:05 PM) *

God has given us many things though. He gave us a brain so we could question and wonder. If he has given us that, we should use it to learn, question and discover things, not go by a book that tells us what God says and says not, ya know? That's my opinion, as a very... rare Christian. Lol...

Many people do, indeed, "question and wonder" about the message that the Bible is trying to get across. But if you truly believe that the Bible is not the Word of God, then I suppose that might be all right; but we should not make any spiritual decisions before we fervently seek God on important matters.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Jun 28 2007, 04:11 PM


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Fox
post Dec 11 2006, 10:43 PM
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Ninja Fox - The Silent Menace
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There are many that would argue the bible is NOT open to interpretation. Many catholics will say this. So whether its interpretation or not is another debate.

Anyway....when will Jesus come back...THERE HE IS!!! .....oh wait...you said "Brown" hair, right? NVM... biggrin.gif


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Resurrection
post Dec 13 2006, 12:27 AM
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Love...the most powerful force on Earth
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QUOTE(Fox @ Dec 11 2006, 05:43 PM) *

There are many that would argue the bible is NOT open to interpretation. Many catholics will say this. So whether its interpretation or not is another debate.

Yes, you are correct, for the most part. Catholics have a very set doctrine and there really isn't much wiggle room. But they do not claim to know everything about the Bible, if I am not mistaken.

This post has been edited by FFmaster08: Jun 28 2007, 04:11 PM


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Make the 99 become 100
LIES PROTRUDE FROM THE MOUTH OF MAN, BUT EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD IS LIFE.
I AM A LIAR
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